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The Sustainable Hour no. 605 | Transcript | Podcast notes
“Cooperation over chaos. We are all in this together.”With those words from United Nations Secretary-General António Guterres, The Sustainable Hour no. 605 sets out to explore what Australia’s oldest living cultures can teach a society wrestling with climate breakdown, inequality, racism and an economic system built around perpetual growth.
Our guest is Dion Devow – Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander entrepreneur, mentor, public speaker, reconciliation consultant and 2018 ACT Australian of the Year. Dion joins us from Ngunnawal Country near Canberra. His Aboriginal heritage connects him to the Palm Island group off the Queensland coast, while his Torres Strait Islander family comes from Erub, or Darnley Island, in the eastern Torres Strait.
The conversation ranges widely – from language and sea level rise to business, racism, reconciliation and the Voice referendum. At its heart is a deeper question: what happens when an ancient culture built around relationship with Country meets a modern economy built around money?
. . .
COLIN MOCKETT’S GLOBAL OUTLOOK
Colin begins this week’s global roundup in Antarctica, where researchers are seeing grasses spreading as temperatures rise. The change raises an extraordinary new possibility for one of the coldest places on Earth – wildfire.
• Grass is becoming more established on parts of the Antarctic Peninsula and sub-Antarctic islands as the climate warms. Researchers warn that grass-dominated ecosystems can be more flammable than the mosses and lichens traditionally associated with the region.
• Typhoon Dolphin brought destructive winds, flooding and record-breaking rainfall across parts of China after passing through Japan’s Okinawa Prefecture.
• Climate scientist Zeke Hausfather says the developing 2026–27 El Niño could become the strongest recorded, with climate models projecting conditions well outside anything previously observed.
• Western Europe continues to experience severe heat and drought. England has endured exceptionally dry conditions while France faces repeated heatwaves and low river levels are creating problems elsewhere in Europe.
It is another reminder that the climate system is changing in ways that increasingly challenge our expectations of what is normal – even in places such as Antarctica.
. . .
BUSINESS PEOPLE LONG BEFORE COLONISATION
Dion challenges the idea that business arrived in Australia with Europeans. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples traded between nations and across vast distances for thousands of years. Networks extended beyond Australia to Macassan traders from what is now Indonesia and to other peoples across the region.
Today Dion works across several worlds. He has spent years supporting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander entrepreneurs, including establishing the Canberra Business Yarning Circle. He advises organisations on Reconciliation Action Plans, operates businesses of his own and works with the Australian Institute of Marine Science, helping connect marine scientists with Traditional Owners and ensuring proper consultation when research takes place on Sea Country. His experience gives him an unusual perspective – deeply connected to First Nations culture while also navigating contemporary Australian business.
What is the antidote to addiction to profit?
The conversation turns to a question recently raised by the Climate Council: What is the antidote to addiction to profit?
Dion points to the fundamental difference between an economic system organised around accumulating money and a culture that has traditionally understood survival through maintaining relationships with land, water, animals and community.
Traditional practices around hunting, fishing and fire management were shaped by restraint and regeneration. You take what is needed. You understand seasons. You allow Country to recover. The aim is continuity.
As Dion puts it, life is about making sure that Country, Sea Country, people and culture can be sustained and preserved. That philosophy sits uneasily beside an economy where success is frequently measured through how much can be extracted, produced and sold.
At the same time, Dion rejects simplistic ideas about returning to some imagined past. Aboriginal people today participate in the same economic system as everyone else. His own businesses have survived because he has adapted, innovated and learned how to operate successfully within that system.
Living in two worlds
This becomes one of the strongest themes of the conversation. Dion describes himself as someone who knows how to live in two worlds. There is the contemporary Australian world of education, employment, business, technology and money. And there is another world of Country, culture, ancestry, family and knowledge stretching back thousands of generations.
Colonisation permanently changed the conditions under which Aboriginal people live. Dion argues that the way forward has to recognise that reality while creating opportunities for younger generations to reconnect with Country, language and culture. He sees enormous hope in young Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who can become increasingly confident navigating both worlds.
After the Voice referendum
Dion describes the defeat of the Voice referendum as a major setback for race relations in Australia. He says racism has become more visible and aggressive, particularly online, and speaks openly about the abuse directed at him personally. Yet his response is neither withdrawal nor resignation. He continues to argue for engagement, education and working together.
For Dion, reconciliation itself can be a problematic word. It suggests returning to a previous relationship – although no equal relationship existed to return to. The challenge now is to acknowledge what happened through colonisation and create something better from here. Recognition, respect, equality and being heard remain central.
→ www.diondevow.com.au
→ www.ddesigns.com.au
→ Follow Dion on Instagram
Learning to listen
Near the end of the Hour, Mik recalls words from an Aboriginal Elder he heard more than 20 years ago:
“Normally we follow roads that are already there. But that’s the wrong way. When you walk, you have to send the landscape and the road out of yourself.”
The words suggest another way of understanding change. We do not always have to walk down roads somebody else has created. Sometimes the road has to be imagined first. The landscape begins inside us. Then we walk.
Be
As always, we ask our guest what we should “be”. Dion gives us perhaps the longest Be in the history of The Sustainable Hour:
Be respectful. Be open. Be kind. Be open to change and understanding. Be more united. Be mindful of yourself and others. Be authentic. Understand who you are and your place in the world.
Mik eventually reduces the whole list to two words: Simply be.
Song: ‘Learn to Listen’
The Hour closes with the original song Learn to Listen, woven together with spoken reflections from Yaraan. The song brings the episode’s themes back to Country: Slow down. Listen. Allow water to guide and fire to teach. Remember that Country is more than something surrounding us. It forms part of identity, culture and belonging.
In a civilisation that has become extraordinarily good at speaking, producing, consuming and moving faster, perhaps one of the most radical things we can learn is something humanity once understood much better: how to listen.
“I think it is important that we understand what is happening and how those sea levels are rising – and the impacts that are happening in terms of the environment and what we are doing as a human race to contribute to that.”
~ Dion Devow, TEDx speaker and First Nations Australian of the Year for Canberra
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We at The Sustainable Hour would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we are broadcasting, the Wadawurrung People. We pay our respects to their elders – past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all First Nations people.
The traditional custodians lived in harmony with the land for millennia, nurturing it and thriving in often harsh conditions. Their connection to the land was deeply spiritual and sustainable. This land was invaded and stolen from them. It was never ceded. Today, it is increasingly clear that if we are to survive the climate emergency we face, we must learn from their land management practices and cultural wisdom.
True climate justice cannot be achieved until Australia’s First Nations people receive the justice they deserve. When we speak about the future, we must include respect for those yet to be born, the generations to come. As the old saying reminds us: “We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.” It is deeply unfair that decisions to ignore the climate emergency are being made by those who won’t live to face the worst impacts, leaving future generations to bear the burden of their inaction.
“The Indigenous worldview has been marginalised for generations because it was seen as antiquated and unscientific and its ethics of respect for Mother Earth were in conflict with the industrial worldview. But now, in this time of climate change and massive loss of biodiversity, we understand that the Indigenous worldview is neither unscientific nor antiquated, but is, in fact, a source of wisdom that we urgently need.”
~ Robin Wall Kimmerer, weallcanada.org
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An existential weakness
“As a young man, I had no fear of heights. Climbing to the top of the tallest tree or standing next to the edge of a cliff was no bother at all. Everything changed when I had children and when I’d really appreciated the numerous, straightforward ways in which people become paraplegics and kids lose their father. Great heights started to make me panic. True awareness of reality only comes with maturity. Vertigo isn’t a weakness. It’s a self-preservation skill.
The climate crisis is no different. Those who have no fear have simply not given sufficient attention to the magnitude of the problem. A superficial examination won’t do. It requires deep thought and a willingness to accept new, potentially scary paradigms. While it’s not really their fault, scientists have shown particular incompetence in relaying the severity of our position. Forever cautious and underwhelming, their messaging has been drowned out and frequently dismissed. I love Greta, but her message of very real impending doom comes nowhere close to Trump’s messages of faux doom.
The fact is that our brains respond to immediate threats. Cortisol and Adrenaline get us out of trouble in the here and now. As far as I know, there is no hormone for subtle, incremental threats. Even at this late stage, even after more than a century of awareness and 30 Climate Conferences, there is STILL no shortage of climate deniers. This is an existential weakness that also illustrates the unfortunate Achilles heel of democracy. We’ve seen that it’s pretty simple to get an entire population to vote to sanction themselves when “threatened” by an imaginary invasion of Turkish migrants (Brexit). But, somehow, these same people seem to think that believing in a very real crisis is entirely optional.
We’re living through the movie, “Don’t Look Up”. Or maybe “Idiocracy”? Democracy is not going to save us. And heaven knows that we don’t need another clueless populist. What we really could do with is an anti-capitalist Churchill or FDR (or Thatcher?) who has the intelligence, awareness, and mental fortitude necessary to push through massive structural changes to our economic system and government. We may not be panicking right now. But, we should be.”
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TRANSCRIPT
of The Sustainable Hour no. 605
António Guterres, United Nations Secretary-General: (00:00)
Cooperation over chaos. We are all in this together.
Jingle: (00:14)
The Sustainable Hour. For a green, clean, sustainable Geelong: The Sustainable Hour.
Tony Gleeson: (00:24)
Welcome to The Sustainable Hour. We’d like to acknowledge that we’re broadcasting from the land of the Wadawurrung people. We pay tribute to the elders – past, present, and those that earn that great honour in the future. We’re broadcasting from stolen land, land that was never ceded, always was and always will be First Nations land. Nurturing both their community and their country for millennia before their land was stolen they accumulated a great amount of ancient wisdom – the same ancient wisdom which focuses on Mother Earth and doing no harm, the same wisdom we’re going to need to survive the climate crisis.
Mik: (01:22)
Thank you, Tony. And yes, exactly. This is what we’ll devote The Sustainable Hour to today, getting deeper into understanding the aboriginal world with a sustainability and with a business lens. But before that, first of all, the news keep ticking in from around the world and they are being picked up as usual by our news bulletin reporter Colin Mockett OAM. So, Colin, what do you have for us today?
Colin Mockett’s Global Outlook: (01:55)
Yes, thank you, Mik, and my roundup this week begins in the Antarctic, where Australian scientists have recorded grass growing for the first time on areas where the ice has retreated. They’re predicting that new grass plains are likely to spread over the continent’s southern ocean islands, where their concern is for the prospect of wildfires started by lightning strikes.
And for which there would be no defence. And they confirmed that the new growth was another sign of how human-caused climate change is warping the polar wilderness. They presented their preliminary findings last week at the Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research Conference, which was in Oslo.
Professor Melodie McGeoch, an ecologist from Monash University, who supervised the research said the different strands of evidence came together to raise the prospect of a dramatically and rapidly changing Antarctic region, and in particular this prospect of fire. A wildfire in January last year ripped across 55 per cent of Amsterdam Island, which is in the French Southern and Antarctic lands.
And in 2024, a fire burned on Bird Island in the sub Antarctic. They’re cold, wet, boggy, icy, and the vegetation across many of these places is pretty sparse. So the idea of fire in these areas is quite remarkable, McGeoch said of the islands. Grass is more flammable than other types of vegetation in the region, and both invasive bluegrass and native species seed and spread rapidly after a fire. Grass dominated systems are more likely to burn, she said. The area is one of the fastest warming regions in the southern hemisphere, and increasing temperatures have likely driven grass growth on the peninsula and nearby islands, normally dominated by hardy mosses and lichen.
“Suddenly we’re starting to see grasses do well or better than they used to,” Monash PhD student and research leader Noemie Shephard said. While their data implies a net increase in grass across the region, the story is highly complex. Every single island is undergoing its own mini climate change, Miss Shephard said. Some are drying, some are wetting, some are increasing in temperature.
So all of the grasses across these islands are undergoing different changes. Climate change has warmed the Antarctic Peninsula by three degrees and amplified rare atmospheric warming events, such as the one in 2024 that saw temperatures in East Antarctica shoot 28C degrees above average.
Now to China where Typhoon Dolphin hit the central province of Henan last week, with winds of one hundred and fifty kilometres an hour causing deluges in major cities and prompting the evacuation of more than a million people. High winds disrupted flights and transports as authorities issued the highest level alert, and the second highest alert in Beijing.
In Henan schools and businesses were shut and non essential outdoor activities cancelled. The typhoon reached China after hitting Japan’s southern Okinawa Prefecture, where it cut power to more than fifty thousand buildings. In China the typhoon broke rainfall records in the provinces of Henan and Hubei. The steelmaking city of Wugang received 209.5 millimetres of rain in a single day.
Scientists say China is at risk of increasing the extreme typhoons due to the impacts of climate change, while a developing super El Nino weather pattern this year has added to the threat. The El Nino is expected to cause temperatures in the Pacific Ocean to reach as much as 3.6C degrees above average and could make 2027 the hottest year on record for the Southern Hemisphere.
Climate researcher Zeke Hausfather wrote in a Substack post that the incoming El Nino is likely to be the strongest recorded, and may end up in the strongest by a truly mind blowing margin. The models are forecasting something outside the envelope of anything that we have ever observed, he wrote.
Now to London where their summer long heat wave appears to continue into autumn. A new heat wave is forecast to affect large parts of Western Europe later this week, in yet another phase of blistering and a long lasting summer. The UK’s Met Office figures confirmed that June and July were the nation’s hottest month on record ever.
France is now bracing for its fifth heat wave of the season, while record low river levels threatened to disrupt shipping in Germany after already causing outages at nuclear power stations in Hungary. Yet the latest European data shows that temperatures were inconsistent. They were much higher than average in Western countries such as France, Spain, and the UK and Ireland.
but were lower than average across much of Eastern Europe and Scandinavia. The British Met Office is forecasting thirty six degrees in London this week and says the year so far has seen 34 days with temperatures above thirty degrees. Parts of London have not had rain for 44 days. Almost three quarters of England is now in drought.
As conditions worsened following August’s dry start, the country’s environmental agency declared, acting on advice from scientists. The agency said that the past month was the driest July in 190 years, with rainfall reaching only 10 per cent of the long-term average. And that surprising, but not totally unexpected news, ends our roundup for the week.
Jingle: (08:55)
Listen to our Sustainable Hour – for the future.
Tony: (09:03)
Our guest today is Dion Devow, another one of our guests that keeps himself very busy. He’s in demand as a public speaker, is classified as a TEDx speaker, 2018 ACT Australian of the year. And he does a lot of work in mentoring First Nations organisations. So Dion, thank thanks very much for coming on.
Dion Devow: (09:32)
Thank you, Tony. Nice to be here.
Tony: (09:32)
Welcome to The Sustainable Hour. Tell us yet where you are you based in Canberra? What country?
Dion: (09:40)
Yeah, I’m on Ngunnawal country which encompasses a part of the ACT but I’m over the border. So maybe about 10 or 20 minutes without telling you specifically where I am from Canberra, but it is Ngunnawal country. This isn’t my country though, I’m both Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. I grew up in Darwin, Northern Territory, but my country is on my father’s side, I’m Aboriginal. So we are traditional owners for the Palm Island group and our name is Mambara, Mambara Nankara Wankara, and that’s a group of 12 islands off the coast of Townsville, in northern Queensland.
And on my mother’s side, we’re Torres Strait Islanders from the eastern island ofDarnley, or Erub, in our language. And that’s kind of a sister island to Murray Island, which is where Eddie Koiki Mabo was from. We’re kind of, there’s five different regions in the Torres Strait, and we’re from the eastern islands. We’re only 30 nautical miles from Papua New Guinea, so we’re way out, one of the most eastern islands in the Torres Strait in between the tip of Queensland and Papua New Guinea, but as a part of Queensland.
Colin: (10:46)
So, Dion, how many languages do you speak?
Dion: (10:50)
Well, my grandmother spoke a couple of languages and then English and Creole. I can understand Torres Strait, but I don’t speak it. So I speak English, but it’s Aboriginal. So I speak English and what many Aboriginal people who have lost their language speak Aboriginal English. So even though we speak English, it’s a combination of English, Aboriginal, Torres Strait. And so I could be speaking to you or speaking in a room with you and an Aboriginal person speaking English but you wouldn’t understand because it’s a form of English that’s Aboriginal English, a combination of that. So really English and Aboriginal English, if you could say one or two. Yeah, unfortunately I can’t speak my native tongues and I’ve lost the Mambara, the Aboriginal language. It’s recorded, but there’s not many speakers. Whereas on the Torres Strait side, language is still alive.
Colin: (11:46)
Does that work among many different First Nations peoples, in that they’ve all got a sort of a common Aboriginal Australian language that that’s developing as we’re speaking?
Dion: (11:59)
Sort of, yes. I think in particular in the urban settings, more traditional remote communities, everybody has their own, most people have their own language and then they’ll have a form of a language where they can speak to each other. That kind of crosses over. But usually their language is, so they’ll have dialects where they can communicate. So the language is similar in bordering nations, but they are specific and there were at the time of colonisation, 250 languages or more than that. I’m not sure how many we have today, but I think there may be less than 100 or about 100. So still, you know, language speakers and depending on where you go, where I was brought up in the Northern Territory, if you go to a place like Manangrida, which is 300 kilometres east of Darwin, there’s people there that speak eight languages and then speak English. language is still in many places across the nation very still alive and practiced and spoken.
Tony: (13:03)
Dion, up there – are the… is sea level rise an issue?
Dion: (13:11)
I think it is in the Torres Strait and some Torres Strait islands, people are having to thinking or thinking about relocating because of, you know, the rise in sea level. can’t remember which island that is, but absolutely, absolutely. And I’ve even thought about it just myself when it comes to my father’s side, the Palm Islands and it’s not just one island, it’s a group of 12 islands off the coast of Townsville, as I said earlier. And there’s a lot of the islands and the areas and the sea country is quite pristine, so organisations like the Australian Institute of Marine Science have been doing work in and on that sea country for the last 50 years.
And I’ve got a strong connection with that particular organisation and very interested in what that looks like in terms of what’s happening to our environment and the rise of sea level and even understanding what that’s meant in terms of the last 10,000 years and the impact that’s had around the affecting the landmass because of rising sea levels. I think that people might say the general public might not worry too much about it, but I think lots of Aboriginal people, Aboriginal people that live on islands or are from an island. I think it’s more in the forefront of our minds than others possibly. It’s definitely something that I think about in the future, what that might look like in terms of the impact. So I think it’s important that we understand what’s happening and how those sea levels are rising and the impacts that are happening in terms of the environment and what we are doing as a human race to contribute to that.
Mik: (15:07)
Tony introduced you as a speaker, so what do you speak about when you go out and speak? And also what do you do when you’re not speaking?
Dion: (15:14)
I speak a lot. It depends. I don’t go out there and throw my own stuff around people. When it comes to public speaking, I’m normally invited to go and speak at different events, conferences. So I’ll be a guest speaker. I can go to a school and speak to children about their aspirations and do motivational stuff and talk a little bit about being an Aboriginal person.
You know, speak to the Aboriginal students about how important they are in terms of even the fact that they are Aboriginal that makes them special to reach for the stars and don’t ever let anything impede them from their dreams or aspirations. Or I’ll be asked to go and speak at a conference and I might be like I did. I was invited to go to a conference in Broome a couple of months ago. It was an Indigenous business event and I was a keynote speaker there. Two weeks ago, I spoke at the… well, mc’ed the Brisbane NAIDOC Ball where there is over a thousand people in attendance.
And then I also do facilitation at conferences. So I’ll get asked to go and facilitate conferences, which is a little bit different to emceeing. So this is kind of three different ways that I speak and depending on who or what the event is or who’s reaching out to me, I’ll speak at whatever kind of format or that that looks like what I also like. Even last night, I got a message through LinkedIn from Telstra to be a national judge on the Telstra Business Awards for a particular category. So that’s happening, I think, in November. I’ll fly down to, they fly me down to Tasmania for that. for a few years, because I’m an Australian of the year, I was on the panel for I think two or three years in a row to choose the different categories for ICT Australia the things like that. And that’s around the speaking and kind of engaging in that respect.
And then I also am a RAP consultant [a Reconciliation Action Plan consultant]. So organisations will engage me to help them develop their RAP. So I’ve work with LinkedIn, Raytheon, ComCare, a whole range of Wormald, Wilsons, did I say Wilsons? Many different organisations, government and private over the last 10 years to help them design, develop and implement their Reconciliation Action Plans, which I really love. And then because I have a design business, they usually will engage me a lot of the times to do a specific unique artwork for that. So for the associated documents around that and posters and things that they can use on their signature blocks and digital art as well. And then I work, I have a job. (18:03)
My job in that was what I was talking to you about the Australian Institute of Marine Science (AIMS). I work for them and work with marine scientists and Aboriginal people in communities across the North to help them make sure that free and informed prior consent is undertaken before the marine scientists go in to do work on Aboriginal people in community sea country.
So I act as a kind of conduit and liaison between them in particular, work that’s being undertaken on my country and, you know, and I have the Ddesigns business, which is a clothing label that I’ve had for 15 years, and just recently developed another business, which is just a straight supply company. So it’s a little bit different. So it’s not a specific product that we’re providing to people.
So that’s really interesting and learning it like lots of different industries and how I can provide products by reaching out to other providers to service that particular line of business.
(19:07)
That’s really interesting. So lots of different things. And yeah. That must have given you an incredible overview of the situation for First Nations businesses.
Dion: (19:14)
Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I also like, about 10 years ago, I started a movement called the Canberra Business Yarning Circle. It was just like… it ended up, was just at first a community kind of gathering and we had workshops and guest speakers and so forth.
It was all about supporting First Nations businesses in the region because there wasn’t really anything around. There was no Aboriginal Chamber of Commerce, there was no programs, there was no funding. But I could see when I first went into business in 2011 there was a need, so I created this movement which developed into an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander business support program that I ran for seven years. And that was really successful.
It’s now kind of budgeted for within ACT government, so that I don’t have the contract anymore, but there’s a specific program that runs in the ACT to support people like myself and others that are just getting into business or thinking about getting into business to help them along their journey. yeah, it’s got a lot to do with Aboriginal businesses over the years.
(20:14)
How are they different? Like, what do you bring to the for the Aboriginal businesses?
Dion: (20:24)
I think it’s just because it has an Aboriginal or Indigenous lens on it. So understanding Aboriginal people and culture and the way that we operate. Aboriginal businesses themselves aren’t different because they’re just the same as any other person in terms of, business person in terms of the sector or the industry, whether it’s a clothing label or cultural business, or a building business or like any sort of business, an IT company, recruitment.
You know, it’s not really different in that sense. The way that we operate and conduct ourselves as a people is different. And I think that because we’ve always been business people, that’s what not a lot of people understand that we’ve always traded. We’ve always traded it with each other. We tried it with people internationally. We traded with the Macassans. We traded with Chinese people. You know, we’ve traded with people from the Pacific long before colonisation. We’ve always been business people. We traded amongst each other. We have national and have always had national international networks. And so Aboriginal people don’t really understand it until they get into business, but they make good business people because of the way that we operate.
Colin: (21:32)
Well, I if I can, Dion, can I take you back to your reconciliation? The numbers of units that you’re working on with reconciliation in mind. Just how big a setback was the voice referendum?
Dion: (21:50)
Huge. Massive!
Colin: (21:53)
What is the current First Nations thinking when it comes to reconciliation?
Dion: (22:00)
Well, it’s varied. There’s never really been a consensus across the board that reconciliation is something that every Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander person is on board with because the sheer name and definition of the word reconciliation doesn’t really fit. We can’t go back to what we were, if you think about the specific terminology when we’re saying the word. But in terms of a movement, I understand that I’ve utilised the word and the system and the movement to make a difference, because I was always brought up to make a change, to help my people first, always put God first, to help my people and to bring black and white people together.
And so I have a different lens on the world. It’s not so literal when I think about how things can be done. I think we all need to work together. And I’ve never ever thought about not doing that. And I think the best way that we can do that is to embrace non-Indigenous Australia and try to educate them, in particular the racist ones, although I don’t think, you know, sometimes it’s an uphill battle.
But the only thing that we can do is strive to work together and to make a difference by promoting who we are as a people and understanding that, you know, we can’t go back to the past, but what we can do is move forward together as a nation and understand who we are as a people as the oldest living culture in the history of mankind, continuing culture that is, and to understand that within ourselves first and then promote that and move forward.
But, you know, there was a lot of resistance around, you know, when reconciliation or that movement or the definition of the term was introduced into Australia. It’s a South African model that we’ve adopted. I’ve not really seen anything else that has replaced that besides and everything that probably can, besides a treaty or, you know, the Uluru Statement, or that sort of stuff. in answer to your initial question, Colin, the referendum not coming up, not getting up, has taken, I think, race relations in Australia back 20 years.
It has given license to ignorant racist people to be exactly that and to perpetuate that and to play that out and to say it on social media platforms and for it to play out in everyday lives to our children, our youth, our elderly – It’s absolutely abhorrent and disgusting the racist, ignorant rhetoric and exchange that has happened since the referendum or the lack of the referendum, that not getting across the line. I think it’s been detrimental in terms of race relations in this country and we are still recovering from the fact that it never got up.
Colin Mockett: (24:53)
I’d like to reiterate that reconciliation essentially means getting back to being conciliatory as we were before. And that’s very much only used by white Australians. What is the First Nations take on reconciliation? You’re looking for equality rather than reconciliation. You don’t want to re reconcile to the way it was before it.
Dion: (25:18)
Yes. I think the point is Colin’s that we can’t go back to what we had before. That’s the point. That’s what people struggle with in terms of the movement. It’s the word words are very powerful, right? It’s like reconciling it a cheque, you know, yeah, whatever you used to have back in the day It’s like zeroing it out, going it back, you know, like bringing it back to a place that was – and we can’t go we can’t do that. It’s unrealistic and it’s impossible.
All we can do is move forward and do what we can to preserve what really has been denigrated in terms of our culture as a result of colonisation. And all people really would like is first of all, think, acknowledgement, respect as the first peoples of this country, and to be seen and heard. And until this point, that’s still we still really haven’t had the opportunity to do that. If you think about it, we’ve only as a people in this country been recognised as citizens only since 1967. So what’s that? Is that 59 years or something? Well, I don’t know. It’s not even 70 years. So we are still behind the eight ball. If you think about what’s happened to us historically, our children being taken away, our people being murdered, you know, from the onset, the first, you know, introduction of non-indigenous people coming to this country being wiped out as a result of not having immunities to smallpox and the common cold and things like that.
We’ve been affected physically, emotionally, spiritually from the point of contact until today and until we have mechanisms or a way to be able to bring about parity and equality, which the referendum was hoping to do, then we’re still kind of fight always fighting in this place where we’re not recognised or respected as the original inhabitants of this country and treated as second class citizens and we’re always it’s so political because we’re still here there’s no acknowledgement of what happened and that’s what i think if we if this country could only acknowledge what happened in the past which wasn’t good, right, I think it would do a lot in terms of race relations and so until we have things that are of structural things politically, you know, to create equality and parity, then we’re still going to have this, you know, this state of race relations and saying that too, we do have lots of allies and there were lots of people that voted yes, Canberra was the only, you know, territory that it did, you know, go in our favour, but you know, it’s only a matter of time and whether we see an opportunity for this to come that works around again in my lifetime. I’m not sure. But, you know, there will come a time when I think and I believe that, you know, there will be equality. can only, you only have to see now how race relations, even when it comes to other races and other people, other immigrants and descendants of immigrants, how Australia is not the blonde haired, blue eyed country anymore. And that’s what is getting people up in arms because for so long, that’s what it’s been.
And now they’re almost feeling like this threatened way of operating because it’s like, what’s happening to the white people? Whereas for us, like, well, it’s always been like that for us. We’ve always been a minority. So there’s been a shift in what Australia looks like. And this was predicted many years ago. I remember hearing about it when I was like a teenager that one day there’ll be lots of different, Australians will be brown.
And so I’ve kind of anticipated that no one is going to happen. I just didn’t understand how non-indigenous, really non-indigenous, the white folk, Australians, would react to that because they feel very strongly about that. And I think it’s an interesting reaction because for me it’s like, you know, when it comes to immigration and mass immigration and all these terms that people…
I’ve never really had an issue with anybody coming to our country. Other people don’t feel the same, and I mean other Aboriginal people, but I kind of feel like we’ve always had people come here from other countries. We’ve always had interactions with other countries. And if it’s managed properly, then if we talk about the workforce and all that sort of stuff, looking at it through a political lens and an economic lens, it’s… actually been beneficial. Are there more people of colour here? Absolutely! I notice a lot of Indians, a lot of Africans, but it doesn’t bother me. I’m not threatened by their presence, you know, and I see them as an asset to our country unless they’re over here illegally or, you know, coming over here and getting involved in things that aren’t legal, then that’s different.
But I think if they’re coming over here from different countries, and they’re benefiting and assisting our country, whether it’s economically or culturally, I don’t have an issue with it. I think it’s a good thing. I think it’s what it makes Australia. Australia is the mix. Yeah, as long as I respect our people, they’re not okay with it.
Mik: (30:45)
Dean, you talk about equality, you know, that sort of long call that you have had and struggle for equality. Well, half of the population have had a century long struggle for equality, and that’s the women of the world and the women of Australia. Who who have they been suppressed by? Well, the men.
And I have that lens at the moment, I’m a little bit focused on that, talking about men and masculinity because for me when I see you talk about racism. Well I think this toxic masculinity that we’re seeing in particular coming from America has very much to do with racism as well. It these things are sort of connected. It’s about domination. It’s about saying we’re in charge, you know, instead of saying we’re equal, we care. You know, and we are helping each other out.
Dion: (31:36)
Yeah, I look, I understand. I think that is something that has occurred throughout history and it’s what was the catalyst for, you know, the women’s movement and women’s Lib and all that that sort of stuff back in the day. I think, you know, things are a lot better for women, although there is still lots of inequality when it comes to that. I don’t think, you know, women have any less rights than men, the way that plays out is different. The misogyny is
Mik: (32:11)
But but but… Dean, I have to I have to break you off there, because I feel that at the moment there’s like an antifeminism, anti-women movement rising. This is called the Manosphere, which is where where you have American pastors talking about that women shouldn’t even have a right to vote anymore. And these kind of things. But there’s actually a lot of stuff like that happening.
Dion: (32:35)
I hadn’t heard that, Mik, but I obviously don’t agree with that. But I think that, you know, like for the most part, women, although again, going back to what I said around, you know, the way that it plays out, I think still it’s a very different from my… as a First Nations Australian and looking through the world and the women in my community and culture. They’re very strong. A lot of the times and lots of black men wouldn’t want to say this, but a lot of the times things are led by our women.
And not that we’re matriarchal in terms of society, we’re patriarchal, but a lot of the women, you know, are the leaders in every sector, which I’ve always thought was really interesting, like, I want more of the fellas to get out there and, you know, more of our men to do stuff. I think it’s different in non-Indigenous communities and society, but definitely in Black, in my culture, the women are very strong.
Colin: (33:33)
I’m really curious then to hear with the background that you have with on one side the indigenous understanding and on the other side the business world. Because we have a Climate Council here in Australia. They recently put out a question where they said, ‘What is the antidote to addiction to profit?’ Ooh. And this goes deep into, you know, how we build our businesses and what our goals are with our businesses. What is the antidote to addiction to profit?
Dion: (34:04)
Well, the addiction to profit, when you think about everything in our society, right, is motivated and generated and implemented and developed around money, around attaining money, around profit, around the dollar. And so the antidote to that is to, and it comes, it plays into when you’re thinking about sustainability and all that sort of stuff, that our resources, people don’t understand by not valuing our resource, our resources, it’s people, human resource, minerals, our country, our animals, our flora and fauna. If you don’t respect and understand and look to the future around the sustainability of doing that, by protecting those things, because you’re so driven by and motivated by the dollar, then all of that stuff, it can’t be preserved, it can’t be maintained.
And so that’s what I see in is the difference between being an Aboriginal person and the way that we operated as a culture and still do in lots of ways. It’s about living in a way that makes sure your country, your sea country, your people, your culture is sustained and preserved. And so that means when you’re going hunting, you’re not going out and taking all the fish out of a particular area. You know, you’re hunting in seasons and you’re, you know, the things that we were doing with everything burning, you know, how we used to burn off and the cool burns. That was all, it was all about food. It was all about nurturing and cultivating our country and our land so that things would regenerate, you know? And so that’s all about that unity and living in peace with your environment and living in a way that you would take what you just needed for today. And again, that goes back to sustainability, And making sure that you’re preserving the environment that you’re living.
Mik: (36:14)
It does, but are the businesses listening to you when you say that?
Dion: (36:19)
Well, mean, when you’re talking about business, businesses are motivated by money. So, you know, whether you’re black or you’re white, I’m talking about more of a cultural context and an environmental context around sustainability. also, I think sustainability also, if we’re using that word, know, sustainability is a big factor that needs to be implemented into your business model. And I think that being able to pivot, to be able to think on your feet, to be able to understand what’s happening politically really does make a difference in terms of you being able to be successful.
Most businesses fail in the first year or two. And so even if I could use an example from my indigenous clothing label, I’ve been around for 15 years now and I’ve had to pivot. I’ve had to look at different industries and different ways to adapt and to stay relevant.
When I started back in 2011, there was probably four or five indigenous clothing labels in the country. Now there’s probably a hundred. So there’s a lot more competition, but I’m still around. I’m not the most popular or visible, but I’m probably one of the original ones and I’m still here. And so I’ve had to be able to do different things that have made me, made my business, you know, kind of set apart and different from other indigenous clothing labels. And that means having different lines of business and, you know, attacking different industries, not attacking, but working with different people and being, being able to think of my feet and being creative, even around things like this, like these shoes are on me. These are my Crocs. Like I was the first person to do Aboriginal design Crocs. I was the first person to do Aboriginal designed scrubs. So I’m always trying to be ahead of the eight ball.
And you have to be if you want to be, you know, in business and for a long time. And that’s being, I suppose, a different way to be thinking about sustainability, right? And that’s about being creative and thinking on your feet and being able to pivot and being resilient. There’s lots of times that I’ve wanted to give up, but I’m still going. So anyway, does that answer your question? I hope it didn’t go too far off track.
Colin: (38:41)
Could I bring you back to what you were saying earlier, Dion, when you said that there are the Aboriginal values of the use of fire and and not overfishing and not taking away keeping everything sustainable, that’s very much our philosophy in The Sustainable Hour. But how do you reconcile that with the fact that you’re trying to sell your own Aboriginal designed products, surely that’s being part of the opposition?
Dion: (39:22)
No, really, I suppose it depends. And it strikes me that look … I hate to be the sort of devil’s advocate here, but most of the methods that were used by First Nations people were calling for pulling back, not overfishing, not taking out all of the resources but leaving them for the next time you need them. Whereas the white, if you like, the philosophy that the holy dollar that we’re all chasing at the moment is the opposite of that. And I can’t see a way that you can actually get that First Nation thinking through to a system, any system that would work in Australia.
It doesn’t work in the white men’s system, but we live in two worlds. So when you’re talking about the sustainability of how we operate when we’re on country, and we’ve been affected by colonisation. We can’t just go out now and live and hunt and exist how we did before colonisation. That’s not practical, And so there’s some good things about colonisation and some bad things about colonisation.
And my point is, is that, and what we talking about earlier is that we can’t ever go back to the way that we were, unless you’ve got a time machine. So we live in two, two different worlds. The way that I reconcile is that is when I’m living in the white men’s world, I have to live in a certain way. I can’t practice how my ancestors practiced. So it’s not viable for me to operate that way. I’m not going to walk up to the shop with a spear and a lap lap and say, you know, I’ve been out hunting and I’ve got some possums that I want to trade for some bread and some milk.
You know, like, you know, you have to be practical about where we’re living. But if I go back to my country, I can go fishing, can go hunting. You know what I mean? So like I said, I live in a white man’s world, I live in a black man’s world, and I’m very good at living in both. And so I think that sometimes non indigenous people and the racist and the ignorant people envy that.
And they use that and try to weaponise that by saying, look at you. You’re you know, you do this, you do this, you’re rich, you have cars, you travel around, you get you go to the Qantas Club. Well, why should not you know what mean? I played by the rules of the white man. I’ve understood how to navigate, knew that education was key. That’s why I make good money, you know, and I’ve been able to make my own money as a business person and work for someone else. And I have my culture and my country that I can go back to when I can.
But if I had a choice, I’d rather just be living in my country and doing what I can there. But we live in a society where we’ve been impacted by the effects of colonisation. And so what we’re trying to reconcile is our way back to our country and our culture and our language and the way that we once lived in a way that’s possible in contemporary Australian Aboriginal society. It’s not the best, but I feel like we’re making a ways and we have to be able to be practical about that and, you know, not bury our heads in the sands and think that we can go back and sit on the beach and hunt and gather and live in a way that we once did because for the most part we can’t.
Colin: (42:50)
Though Dion, do you feel that it’s always on your side that you’re making the compromising? Yes. Yeah, the point colonists aren’t doing that.
Dion: (42:56)
Absolutely. A thousand percent. A thousand percent. And that’s what is exhausting. You know? And don’t get me wrong, we have our allies, we’ve had white people that have lived amongst us and supported us and loved us and nurtured us and had relationship with us in positive ways since colonisation. We’ve always had that and we always will have that. But we still are always struggling and fighting with the racist ignorant people that believe that our mere existence is a threat to them when we don’t see that. Because we’ve always, like I said, we’ve always interacted with non-Indigenous people, whether they’re Asian mob, Indonesian mob, Chinese people, Polynesian mob. We’ve always had interactions with people from other countries, even white people probably, the Dutch back long before the English.
Colin: (43:57)
I would I relish the thought of you going into a a shop with a with a possum skin. I think that would be lovely.
Dion: (44:14)
Wouldn’t it? It certainly turns them heads. I might get some money thrown at me!
Colin: (44:20)
Hey look, have you ever had a white racist say to you, ‘Go back to your own country?’
Dion: (44:29)
Yeah, absolutely. Just about every day. Yes! Every day on social media, I get hammered. You know, “You’re not really black.” “You’re living in this city. You’ve got a nice house. What are you doing?” “You’re not really Aboriginal. You don’t speak your language.” You know, appalling things.
And it’s gotten worse since in the last couple of years with the referendum. It’s like I said, it’s the race relations and the racism in this country, especially on social media. And then they try and flip it around to call me racist when I’m saying things about, you shouldn’t say this, you shouldn’t say that, that’s a racist. You’re racist. Like, can call me whatever you like. It does not hurt. We have been called so many things, so many disgusting, vile things over the last 200 years.
What do you think? You’re going to call me racist and that’s to hurt me when I’m so, you know, I mean, it’s really bad. And I just think and I’m really a really sensitive person, but there’s nothing that anybody I mean, I’ve been called a black dog, a monkey, which is something new. And I was a little bit taken aback by that. But it’s just like, whatever. Like, you know, there’s nothing that you can do. Look at our history. Look at what has happened to us physically, emotionally, spiritually.
We’re still here and that’s why we are so political because we’re not supposed to be here and that’s what the issue is and so we’re not going anywhere and if anything we’re getting more educated, we’re getting stronger in every way that you can think about and our population’s growing. The only thing we really don’t have is political power because of our numbers, but you know in time that will change and so, even in politics as more and more black politicians, not that we all agree with them all, we’re all different, right?
But there will come a time when it’s not gonna be like this and I look forward to that and I’m relying on our youths and their smarts and their education and their ability to be able to live in both worlds in a better way than we’ve been able to do and the opportunities that present themselves to be able to do that, their ability to be able to maintain and go back to the country and learn, relearn language, relearn Country, relearn how it is and who it is, and who they are, and where their country is, and reconnecting with that will only make them stronger as individuals and then coupling that with the white men ways too so that we’re able to continue to walk in this world that enables us to thrive.
Mik: (47:18)
Dion, thank you very much for… You know, we would love to speak for another hour with you, but I wanted to end here on a quote that I also have in a book that I’ve published recently where I’m quoting an Aboriginal elder telling the audience when I was at a festival in Wollombin, this is more than 20 years ago, where she said:
“Normally we follow roads that are already there. But that’s the wrong way. When you walk, you have to send the landscape and the road out of yourself.”
And I was – in the beginning, you know – puzzled by that: how do you understand that way of seeing the world? “You have to send the landscape and the road out of yourself.” And what that says to me is a lot about creativity. Don’t follow the paths that somebody else has made for you. No, you create the path in your head, and that creates the landscape, and then you walk on that instead.
I think it’s a very powerful quote, which is why I’m ending the book with that. So there you are. This is this is something I picked up 20 years ago, here in Australia. But Dion, we have a “Be-section” here in The Sustainable Hour – before we leave you, we’d love to hear your take on… you know, we always ask people: “What should we be?” Meaning, you know, should we be the change, be the difference? What should we be?
Dion: (48:37)
I think there’s lots of ways to be and I love the fact that, you know, that’s a great question. There’s lots of ‘Be’s’ I think that we need to be. I think that, you know, I think we need to be respectful. I think we need to be open. I think we need to be kind to our fellow man, be open to change and understanding, be more united. And with all of those things, you know, being mindful of yourself and others and being yourself, being authentic, you know, and with all of those things that allows you, you know, and gives you peace and allows you to be who we’re meant to be. Be mindful of who you are meant to be. Understanding who you are and your place.
Mik: (49:28)
That’s probably the biggest ‘Be’ we’ve ever had, Dion… – that’s the biggest ‘Be’ we’ve ever had in The Sustainable Hour.
Colin: (49:38)
Please be back!
Mik: (49:40)
I would boil it down to saying, Dion: simply be.
Dion: (49:47)
Yes, simply be. Yeah. Yeah. Love it.
. . .
SONG (49:55)
‘Learn to Listen’
Yaraan: “Country can speak to anyone. It’s just, yeah, if they know how to listen.”
Verse 1:
I stand on the Earth
I breathe with the land
The rhythm of its heartbeat
weaves in with my own
I give it all the time it needs
Yaraan: “Slow down to the pace of your heartbeat. Tomtumpa, your heartbeat.”
Chorus:
Listen…
The treaty begins when truth is spoken
Listen…
Healing begins when harm is named
Listen…
Water will guide, fire will teach
Listen…
The stars will sing, when we learn… to listen
[Instrumental section]
Bridge:
We sang the rain, and the rain came
We danced the land, and the land moved
Our sacred fire never dies
We’ll wait for you to slow down
Sit down and learn – to listen
Chorus:
Listen…
The treaty begins when truth is spoken
Yaraan: “This modern world is moving very fast.”
Listen…
Healing begins when harm is named
Listen…
Water will guide, fire will teach
Listen…
The stars will sing, when you learn… to listen
Verse 2:
We are the river
We are the land
The eagle watches
The whale sings
We don’t own these stories
They flow through us
Every rock is a page of a living law
Every tide a verse of an ancient truth
Outro:
Songlines have been drowned in pipelines
Kinship traded for control
But in a world that forgets, we remember
We carry the culture with us
And we are still here, walking
Yaraan: “We’re not waiting for the government.”
Still here, protecting
Protecting what protects us
Yaraan: “We are just doing it.”
So our future will be strong and safe
Learning takes time
Learn to listen
Yaraan: “Our country is our identity, it’s part of who we are and it should be at the root of all other decisions made.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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