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The Sustainable Hour no. 557 | Transcript | Podcast notes
Our guest in The Sustainable Hour on 16 July 2025 is Peter Andrews, landscape restorer, Natural Sequence Farming expert and ‘plant whisperer’.
In this episode, we confront the human toll of climate breakdown while also exploring a hopeful path to heal degraded landscapes.
Mik Aidt opens the hour reflecting on the recent wave of deadly floods, heatwaves and storms:
– In Texas, catastrophic floods killed at least 162 people, including 36 children, with 170 still missing.
– Across Europe, a heatwave has already claimed over 2,300 lives.
– Floods in Pakistan, South Africa, and Nigeria have killed hundreds more.
“These are not natural disasters,” Mik reminds us, “they are UNnatural – driven by human-caused climate change.”
Colin Mockett delivers his Global Outlook, sharing hopeful signs: China’s emissions are dropping, renewables are booming, and e-bikes emerge as the most efficient personal transport. Yet he also reports alarming losses of Antarctic sea ice and a sobering warning about sea level rise threatening millions of people worldwide.
. . .
Our feature guest of the week is Peter Andrews, an advocate of the Natural Sequence Farming principles. Peter returns to share lessons from 40 years of restoring degraded Australian land by working with plants, water, and sunlight.
Peter explains how rehydrating soil, guiding water with simple contours, and letting plants take over can revive fertility, solve salinity problems, cool the landscape, and rebuild resilience – without chemicals or expensive interventions.
“Manage the water, and let the plants take over.”
~ Peter Andrews
→ Peter Andrews’ facebook page is here.
We also hear excerpts from a YouTube interview with Peter Andrews, produced by Tim Thompson, and from climate scientists like Johan Rockström, Chris Stokes, and Sir David King, all warning that we are already seeing worst-case scenarios unfold – but that every fraction of a degree of warming we avoid still matters.
The episode features two new songs:
– Let the Plants Move In: a tribute to the power of plants and water to heal the land.
– How Many More Must Die: a poignant call to action inspired by flood victims and the fight for climate justice.
Let the Plants Move In | Lyrics
– A gentle, country-inspired tribute to Peter Andrews, celebrating his vision of managing the water and letting the plants take over.
How Many More Must Die | Lyrics
– An emotional song about loss, climate-driven disasters, and the desperate plea to wake up before more lives – especially children’s – are lost.
→ You can listen to 35 other songs, and help us rank them, here.
Mik reminds listeners of an upcoming community resilience training in Geelong, encouraging everyone to get involved in building a more connected, prepared, and resilient community.
. . .
Tony’s conluding comments
Another visionary guest in Peter Andrews today. When he started out he was labelled a lunatic, such were the ideas he was espousing. Just when the so-called Green Revolution (also known as industrial farming) was getting established, soon after World War II, he could see problems in this and its heavy reliance on chemicals and artificial fertilisers.
He knew that this would take a heavy toll on the soil and impact negatively on the important role that plants have in keeping our environment in balance. Being a keen observer of all aspects of the environment, he developed his techniques to enhance the natural sequences.
Peter was seen as a direct threat to “Big Agriculture”, as what he was advocating meant that their toxic products weren’t needed. For over 40 years Peter has persisted, such is his belief in his farming techniques. Over time, more and more farmers came to believe in him too. They only had to come to his property and see how they were thriving compared to his neighbours.
That one positive experience drowned out the negativity about his methods. Sadly he still faces criticism mainly coming from Big Ag because of the threat he poses their “bottom line”. We so badly need more big thinkers like Peter Andrews as we face up to the climate and ecological crises.
We’ll be back next week with yet more inspiration from a solution seeker. Have you worked out what your role is going to be in the green transition? What will be your role as we head towards the safer, more just, inclusive, sustainable, peaceful and more healthy world that we need so badly right now?
“Now we’ve got models in almost every climatic region of the country since we spoke last time. And they’ve all had a fairly good chance to be tested. And obviously then, if a professional analysis is done of these processes… because over the 40 years that I’ve been looking at this, it’s never been really effectively assessed by an independent professional body. They’ve looked at it, walked about it, kicked a few tires and stuff like that, but never really analysed carefully what this whole landscape had done. And I just sort of can’t believe that I walk out, that we’ve got an energy crisis on at the present time through the whole planet, and yet you walk out at the sun and that’s the only energy we can use for agriculture and life, and yet we don’t use the plants which convert that source of energy to everything we can use. It doesn’t make sense to me”
~ Peter Andrews, landscape restorer and Natural Sequence farmer
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We at The Sustainable Hour would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we are broadcasting, the Wadawurrung People. We pay our respects to their elders – past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all First Nations people.
The traditional custodians lived in harmony with the land for millennia, nurturing it and thriving in often harsh conditions. Their connection to the land was deeply spiritual and sustainable. This land was invaded and stolen from them. It was never ceded. Today, it is increasingly clear that if we are to survive the climate emergency we face, we must learn from their land management practices and cultural wisdom.
True climate justice cannot be achieved until Australia’s First Nations people receive the justice they deserve. When we speak about the future, we must include respect for those yet to be born, the generations to come. As the old saying reminds us: “We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.” It is deeply unfair that decisions to ignore the climate emergency are being made by those who won’t live to face the worst impacts, leaving future generations to bear the burden of their inaction.
“The Indigenous worldview has been marginalised for generations because it was seen as antiquated and unscientific and its ethics of respect for Mother Earth were in conflict with the industrial worldview. But now, in this time of climate change and massive loss of biodiversity, we understand that the Indigenous worldview is neither unscientific nor antiquated, but is, in fact, a source of wisdom that we urgently need.”
~ Robin Wall Kimmerer, weallcanada.org
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| Geelong Sustainability: Community Resilience Training Opportunity |
| In partnership with The Resilience Canopy, Geelong Sustainability is proud to bring the nationally recognised Resilience Canopy Practitioner Training to the Barwon region. If you’re a passionate community member, volunteer or a local leader and interested in building skills to support community resilience, you can learn more about the program and complete your Expression of Interest here. Or if you would like to hear more about the training before expressing your interest, attend the free online information session. When: 5.30 – 6.30pm, Wednesday 23 July (via Zoom) RSVP here. |
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Alan Kohler: China to the rescue
We’re now crossing into the irreversible
Scott Kelly wrote on Linkedin:
Two new Nature articles reveal what’s in store when we exceed 1.5°C. We’re now crossing into the irreversible, and the prognosis is not looking good.
🔸 Coral reefs may never recover.
The first study shows that reef ecosystems can reach a tipping point after which they stop rebounding from bleaching events. Once thermal stress exceeds a certain level, even a return to lower temperatures does not restore reef structure.
🔸 Tropical forests lose their resilience.
With every tenth of a degree, the productivity of tropical forests—particularly the Amazon and Congo—declines signficantly. Tree mortality increases. Net carbon uptake drops. By 2°C, these forests could tip from carbon sinks to sources, accelerating warming.
🔸 Overshooting 1.5°C triggers irreversible Arctic ice loss.
Even a temporary overshoot of 1.5°C may commit the Arctic to ice-free Septembers. The second study finds hysteresis effects—melting occurs rapidly, but refreezing doesn’t follow the same path. Returning to 1.5°C after overshoot doesn’t undo the damage.
🔸 Non-linear climate risks escalate above 1.5°C.
Impacts rise faster than temperature. The research shows that the frequency of extreme heat events in vulnerable ecosystems increases fivefold between 1.5°C and 2°C. Coral bleaching risk more than doubles. Forest mortality rises sharply.
🔸 Time-limited overshoot is not a safe strategy.
Even scenarios where temperatures peak at 1.7°C and fall back to 1.5°C still result in irreversible damage to key ecosystems. The impacts experienced during overshoot aren’t erased by later cooling. They persist.
My take:
We talk about 1.5°C as if it’s symbolic, a target set for political purposes. These two Nature papers show that the balance of probability towards irreversible damages starts to significantly shift at 1.5ºC. The most important thing is that these impacts don’t follow a neat linear path. Many natural systems don’t heal just because we cool things down later. They break—and stay broken.
This research reinforces why 1.5°C matters—not as an ambition, but as a global guardrail. When we cross it (which is inevitable), the world on the other side will be very different.
[1] Irreversible glacier change and trough water for centuries after overshooting 1.5ºC. Lilian Schuster et al.
www.nature.com/articles/s41558-025-02318-w
[2] Risks of unavaidable impacts on forests at 1.5ºC with and without overshoot. Gregory Munday et al.
www.nature.com/articles/s41558-025-02327-9
Special thanks to the lead authors
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Follow me on LinkedIn: Scott Kelly
Authorities in Kerr County say they have plans to drain at least one flood-swollen lake, as they continue to search for the roughly 100 people still thought to be missing after the catastrophic flash flooding of July 4.
— Texas Public Radio (@texaspublicradio.bsky.social) July 16, 2025 at 7:44 PM
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🚨“Heatwaves don’t leave a trail of destruction like wildfires or storms. Their impacts are mostly invisible but quietly devastating." 📣 We are in a climate crisis. It's time for citizen-led solutions! www.theguardian.com/environment/…
— REScoop.eu (@rescoop.eu) July 16, 2025 at 7:33 PM
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Transcript of The Sustainable Hour no. 557
António Guterres, United Nations Secretary-General:
We are flirting with climate disaster.
Jingle:
The Sustainable Hour. For a green, clean, sustainable Geelong: The Sustainable Hour.
Tony Gleeson:
Welcome to The Sustainable Hour. As always, we’d like to acknowledge that we’re broadcasting from the land of the Wadawurrung people. We pay tribute to the elders – past, present, and those that earn that great honour in the future. We’re broadcasting from stolen land, land that was never ceded, always was and always will be First Nations land. And that’s been given a particular focus over the last week or two when NAIDOC Week celebrations are on. Seems that NAIDOC Week is morphed into NAIDOC fortnight, at least. But yeah, the big thing is that the accumulated wisdom that they’ve acquired from nurturing both their land and their communities for millennia before their land was stolen. And in that ancient wisdom lies so many of the answers we need as we navigate the climate crisis.
Queensland Premier in ABC News on 2 February 2025: (at 01:30)
This is threatening to be the worst flood that Hingham has seen in a century.
Mik Aidt:
How many more must die? How many more must die? This past week has been yet another brutal chapter in the story of our suffering planet. In Texas we’ve been following on the screens, these catastrophic floods that so far have left at least 162 people dead and among them 36 children with another 170 people still missing. Whole neighbourhoods have been swept away, making this one the most deadly disaster in Texas history.
Across Europe, a heatwave has claimed more than 2,300 lives so far. And of those, the scientists are telling us, at least 1,500 can be directly linked to human-driven climate change. In Pakistan, flash floods have killed more than 100 people, destroying homes, displacing thousands. In South Africa, they’ve also had heavy rains and floodings with more than a hundred people dead and 5,000 people lost their homes. Back in May it was in Nigeria where 500 people were killed. How many more must die?
As we know these are not isolated natural disasters as the mainstream media and the fossil fuel industry would like us to call it. No, they are UNnatural disasters. They’re part of this pattern that we have been warned about. Ever since we started The Sustainable Hour 13 years ago, we’ve been talking about how when our atmosphere heats up, our weather will grow more violent and communities are going to be confronted with this – and bear the costs. Not the polluters, not the fossil fuel companies, and not the politicians who are responsible for this mess.
How many more people must die? The choices we make every day now decide how many more names are going to be added to that list.
Here in The Sustainable Hour though we will be talking about something natural today. Natural sequence farming. But before that, I’m pleased to report that again today we have our main man with the global outlook, Colin Mockett OAM, ready in his newsroom with a roundup of what else has been going on and happening around the world. Colin, what do you have for us?
COLIN MOCKETT’S GLOBAL OUTLOOK
Well, thank you, Mik. My roundup this week begins in China, where analysts reported that, measurably, in the first quarter of this year, China’s total carbon emissions had actually decreased considerably. Emissions linked to producing electricity fell nearly 6 per cent as solar and wind have replaced coal.
In 2024, almost half the automobiles sold in China, which is the world’s largest car market, were full or hybrid electric vehicles. And China’s prowess at producing cheap solar panels and EVs means that the nations with which it has strong trading links, such as in Asia and Africa and South America, are all seeing their own surge of renewable power. So it’s spilling out of China: the fact that they’re using less power and other nations that trade with China are in the same position. In South America, for example, where a decade ago there were plans to build 15 new coal-fired power plants, as of this week, there are now none. They’re all cancelled and they’re replaced by Chinese panels.
And there’s even better news from India, which is now the world’s fastest growing economy, as well as the most populous nation. Data released last week showed that for the first four months of this year, a surge in solar production kept the country’s coal use flat and cut the amount of gas used during the same period in 2024 by more than a quarter. So their emissions have drastically reduced.
The march of Chinese solar panels appears relentless and could result in countries actually meeting their COP targets, despite the opposition from fossil fuel companies that lobby governments to try and keep the changeover slow. So that takes us to Antarctica, where a new report from the National Snow and Ice Data Centre reported that Antarctica has lost an alarming amount of sea ice in the last decade.
The loss is estimated to be around 2 million square kilometres, enough to cover the entire area of Greenland. This ice has simply not returned, marking one of the most significant environmental changes in the past decade. The new article, which is titled ‘The Great Unfreezing’, documents the 47-year satellite record low that Antarctic sea ice reached earlier this year. On 1 March, sea ice extent measured approximately 1.98 million square kilometres and this marks the fourth consecutive year that sea ice has dropped below 2 million square kilometres. Since 2002, Antarctica has been losing ice at an average rate of 136 gigatons per year and as that ice melts, it releases large volumes of freshwater into the oceans, which disrupts the balance of salinity and temperature.
Now this slows down the Antarctic Circumpolar Current (ACC), which is the world’s strongest ocean current. The slowing of the ACC can have serious global consequences, impacting climate systems, altering weather patterns and threatening marine ecosystems, the report said.
I think it’s safe to say that this is another report that won’t make the Murdoch press and so it won’t be in Australia’s news cycle. But it is very, very important and it reflects on us because much of the Antarctic is under Australian control.
Now to Europe, where the European Commission this week unveiled its roadmap towards nature credits.
It’s a new initiative designed to unlock private investment for biodiversity and ecosystem restoration right across the Union. The roadmap aims to boost public funding by creating a market-based mechanism that rewards nature-positive actions such as wetland restoration and sustainable land management. In return, project developers including farmers, foresters and landowners and local communities can generate new income streams while contributing to climate resilience and ecosystem recovery.
The Commission warned that the climate and nature risks could cost businesses up to 7 per cent of their profits over the next decade if this is left unaddressed. It’s therefore committed to allocating 10 per cent of its budget to biodiversity by 2026-2027 and doubling its external biodiversity spending to 7 billion euros.
“We have to put nature on the balance sheet,” said the Commission’s President Ursula von der Leyen. When well designed, nature credits provide an efficient market-driven way to reward those who protect our ecosystems.
The initiative aims to build a strong foundation for scaling up nature credits across Europe and worldwide, with pilot projects already underway in France, Estonia and Peru. And finally, a report published by the Rocky Mountains Institute compares different methods of transport and lists the most efficient, not just the most efficient for energy, but the most efficient energies as well. The paper put things in simple terms, explaining that burning gas to light rooms creates more heat than light. Burning coal to create electricity creates more heat than electricity. Burning oil to move a vehicle creates more heat than motion.
We are sending more energy up in smokestacks and out of exhaust pipes than we are putting to work to power our economy. That’s because burning oil to power a car or burning coal to produce electricity is at best slightly more than 30 per cent efficient, the report states. Or putting it the other way, it’s 70 per cent inefficient.
For that reason, it takes two to three times more energy to run a standard car than to run an EV, even when the EV is charged with power from a coal-fired plant. It’s still far more efficient than a vehicle that’s run on internal combustion engine. And the final point is that the most efficient personal transport in the world today, the scientists found, was e-biking, which may prove to be this century’s most important innovation.
The e-bike is almost unbelievably efficient. To fully charge a 500 watt e-bike costs on average eight cents. They’re talking American cents. That charge provides some 50 kilometres of range. So it costs about a cent to ride more than five kilometres and its emissions is negligible.
And that small piece of cycle efficiency ends our roundup for this week.
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Jingle:
Listen to our Sustainable Hour – for the future.
. . .
Tony: (at 12:12)
Our guest today is Peter Andrews. Many of our listeners will have heard, no doubt, about Peter before. He’s been on the show a long time ago, six years. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then, Peter. And then you were talking about the impact of plants – just on the way the world functions, I guess. So, we thought we’d get you back on again to see what’s up front at the moment, any changes? You were pushing hard for the way we did agriculture to change and I guess maybe today we could find out if there’d been any changes on that front. So Peter, thanks for coming on again!
Thanks for having me on here. This is very important. There’re a lot of changes occurred, and I moved to a drier area where the land was completely degraded. It was the first inland registered occupation, 1813, and it was at Bungonia where they damaged the place, apparently, in the first few years they were there, planted willow trees, repaired it, and then in 1860 when the Yellowstone Park was being registered in the US, they declared it some sort of water feature.
So it’s just one of those connections. And then I’ve been able to watch a landscape rebuild from a very degraded state. And it taught me a few things because I’d been working previously just on the skeleton of the other landscape and knowing how it had previously built, rebuilding it.
Today, I can guarantee that the principles are the most efficient water storage that was ever, the most efficient use of water through fertility in the plants ever. And there were some very simple things… The Perch River system guaranteed that every time the water got through the higher points, it could leave a freshwater lens underneath the living layer.
And of course, I grew up in a place where there were melon holes and crab holes and those things which are hollows where water would form and then in the dry time it would crack open quite severely. And of course, in the principle of that, the fresh water would always go to the bottom of the living layer.
So what is really important from all this, if we understand how these processes work, that fresh water layer, if it’s under pressure, which it was from the perch rivers and in these melon holes, meant that nothing could leak through that into the subsurface. So it maintained the highest level of fertility in the surface layer.
I know that’s hard to understand, but it’s much easier if you’re watching it in a film, in a in paddock or wherever
But from now on, I have been able to reorganise the processing of all sorts of plant residues, and it goes through a system, and our old landscape had what they referred to as ‘chains of ponds’. And now I’ve got chains of contours.
And there was a video a fellow did on the model that I’ve now got working.
But that’s not the only one. Unfortunately, now we’ve got models in almost every climatic region of the country since we spoke last time. And they’ve all had a fairly good chance to be tested.
And obviously then, if a professional analysis is done of these processes… because over the 40 years that I’ve been looking at this, it’s never been really effectively assessed by an independent professional body.
They’ve looked at it, walked about it, kicked a few tires and stuff like that, but never really analysed carefully what this whole landscape had done. And I just sort of can’t believe that I walk out, that we’ve got an energy crisis on at the present time through the whole planet, and yet you walk out at the sun and that’s the only energy we can use for agriculture and life and yet we don’t use the plants which convert that source of energy to everything we can use. It doesn’t make sense to me.
Mik:
Peter, for our listeners who haven’t followed your long journey and the books you’ve written and everything, maybe just explain what’s the outcome at the other end, for instance for agriculture – and what’s the benefit in terms of, let’s say, food?
Peter:
Obviously, when I was quite young, Australia was known as the best producer of food. I grew up on a station where we didn’t have to use any immunising or worming or so on. And then I moved to Gawler where there was a degraded area and it was costing me $40 grand a year just to keep a few of the animals. So what I’ve been working on ever since was how did plants make this landscape as healthy as it is?
And I don’t find anywhere in the natural system where plants were taken out. So I started to realise that in a flooding cycle, all of the residues would be floated in the water, left on a high point. And I just started repeating that simple natural process in agriculture. So you can put these contours carrying all of the residue you don’t want, wasted weeds or whatever.
And then as it liquefies, moves down through your agricultural zone. It’s no different than people putting tits and all those things on their permaculture system. But this is actually a broad acre process that has been operating in this landscape for millions of years. And it was back in the days when it had megafauna, it lasted for some millions of years. It had recovered from water that had been maintained in the landscape by plants basically.
So we’ve lost the plot and when I was first involved in this I had a group of scientists from Europe who explained to me how plants were able to release more water in the atmosphere up to 70 per cent, compared to the sea which was producing about 30 per cent.
That then meant that the land was cooler than the sea and that then meant that most things move from where it’s warm to where it’s cool. And that meant that the transition of water from the sea to the land was automatically managed by plants.
I don’t see that being spoken about today, yet it’s something we would learn in first year physics.
Tony:
So Peter, why are farmers so reluctant to accept this sort of information? Any ideas on that?
Peter:
Yes, any change, obviously. And they’ve had four generations of a very, we shouldn’t have been told that this was a very poor soil. It had about a metre and a half of very heavy organic material. When Strzelecki went across the dry parts of South Australia, he recorded carbons as high as 16-18 per cent and organic material on top of that, which was considerable.
And in South Australia, when I was a teenager, you’d go to there and watch the farmers ploughing the paddocks. And there’d be 2,000 seagulls following the plough around. And the farmer would have to stop every two or three laps and pull all the earthworms, which were as thick as your thumb and a foot long, off the tynes.
We didn’t realise that that level of fertility would allow us to keep farming on the raw material that the sun had placed there via the plants over millions of years. And now we have to work on the fact that we have to convert that sunlight if we’re going to keep extracting all the time. And I don’t know… That’s not in the statutes. We don’t explain that to people. Yet I’ve been saying to people recently, walk out, just look at the sun – and realise there is no other source of energy that we can use in agriculture.
And what we’ve been doing is using the reserves that it had in the soil through what is fourth generation today. And one of the processes that naturally was in the landscape was there were plants that used excesses and other plants that replaced them. And if they were to replace them, they couldn’t be edible while they were replacing it, so that we had these… And then we go and call them weeds, but they were specialist plants that at DeepRoot systems, they were capable of bringing fertility back to the surface. They were capable of manufacturing huge areas of sunlight because of their volume of area, green index.
Mik:
We’re talking with Peter Andrews, who is, you could say, the father of this Natural Sequence Farming idea that he has been talking about and written books about, and the ABC has created Australian Story’s about, and so on. So Peter, tell us about what’s next for the natural sequence farming here in Australia… What’s coming up?
Peter:
Well, I’m hoping the professional examination of what’s been overlooked, developed in this landscape, and then it’s involved in administrative processes that allow it to become a thing that the government can guarantee, based on the best science in the world that this landscape contains. That’s really where I’m hoping it gets to.
Certainly, it was a plant managed system that converted the sun’s energy to all the energy we require – and in the process managed the CO2 in the atmosphere. So from then on we need to pick up the pieces.
But Barnaby Joyce now is going into Parliament at the beginning of this session with a private members bill, hoping to get a hold on the current carbon allocations of how we’re going to do it by artificial means, by using windmills and solar farms. My belief is that we should be probably trying to examine both, as the fact that what plants can do and how this landscape previously historically had achieved all of the outcomes we need, and therefore the current installations could be set up as satellites to make good judgments on exactly what is the best option.
Certainly I am certain that historically plants can’t avert the sunlight into all the energy, including fossil beds. And now we’ve got to get to a point where that’s… My efforts have been to use the management of water and all plants and prove that we can conduct every form of agriculture from forestry to agriculture, and reinstate landscape function probably better than it ever was naturally. Because the fundamental principles were efficient water use – it was stored without evaporation, all of these simple pieces, we’re now putting water into exposed areas.
It’s a terribly… – an automatic and simple process, but very complex in terms of trying to get people to understand once it’s, if it was able to run naturally for such a long time and to bring about the megafauna in Australia, which was the largest genetic examples of trees and on the planet under the healthiest conditions, and clearly was able to even step through ice ages without the catastrophic events that occurred in most parts of the planet, then…
But what Barnaby is on about is just getting a hold on the current massive expenditure that we’re seeing and turning it to a profit-building expenditure that plants and the sunlight provide.
I know for certain under the proper regulated system, everybody could use it. It’s taken me 40-odd years to actually fine-tune it, but I’ve put it in models in every part of Australia. And that’s where it should be today. And we need now to move from commercially driven process to a common sense delivered opportunity.
Tony:
Peter, so that would put your ideas…
Peter:
No-no, please, I have only been a messenger, really, and I’ve used the very best scientists to clarify this message. It is not my idea. I can promise you that we can go into this landscape and validate everything that I’ve talked about.
Tony:
Yeah, but what I’m trying to say is that it would put that into legislation…?
Peter:
Well, the legislation really has only to be, I believe, a moratorium at the current situation and an examination of the real facts as they exist. So we have both. We’ve got enough of installations by solar farms and windmills. And certainly we’ve got the evidence right across Australia of what plants could do. But the big thing that’s been missing is when plants slowly, which took millions of years, took control of the landscape and the climate, how they did it has not been properly recorded, it doesn’t seem to me.
And yet the group of scientists that I’ve actually worked with me had spent 30 years and produced a book called International Journal of Water, which is what attracted me. And then this carbon potential, and they explained to me that this whole landscape set the blueprint that would guarantee everybody’s ability to manage the same processes. If given the right advice.
. . .
SONG
Let the Plants Move In – mp3
(Verse 1)
I came to the driest land
Where no rivers would flow
Trees were dead, soil cracked wide
But between the hills, the sun still glowed
I saw the story written there
In the roots and in the sand
If we just give water back
The plants will heal the land
(Chorus)
Guide the water, let the plants move in
Let them weave their green through hollows and wind
The earth remembers, it holds it all in hand
Welcome to our solar-powered, drive-itself land
(Verse 2)
There were melon holes and crab hole scars
Where the salt had come to stay
But a little pond, a contour line
Was enough to generate a different way
This is not a war, and it’s not a fight
No chemicals to command
Just help the water find its path
Allow the plants to expand
(Chorus)
Guide the water, let the plants move in
Let them weave their green through hollows and wind
The earth remembers, it holds it all in hand
Welcome to our solar-powered, drive-itself land
(Bridge)
Every little blade of grass
Knows its place, knows its past
When we listen to the land
We can make it whole, at last
(Chorus)
Guide the water, let the plants move in
Let them weave their green through hollows and wind
The earth remembers, it holds it all in hand
Welcome to our solar-powered, drive-itself land
(Outro)
Walk out to where the gum trees grow
Feel the grass beneath your feet
The quiet work of root and leaf
Where sky and plants and soil meet
Guide the water, and let the plants take over
Our plants are solar-powered
so let the land drive itself
. . .
Mik: (at 30:05)
Peter Andrews visited Geelong about six years ago and we put out a full hour interview at that time about what his natural sequence farming could do for Australian farmers and the Australian landscape restoring the balance you could say in Australian soil without the use of expensive chemicals and there’s also a video that was put out in the end of June produced by Tim Thompson from Farm Learning which pretty well explains the principles and where Peter Andrews thinking and practical experiences is today. You can watch the video on YouTube. We’ll put a link out to that. But I think we should also just have a listen to an excerpt from it here. It’s titled ‘What Peter Andrews Wants Every Farmer to Know.’
. . .
Youtube video: ‘What Peter Andrews Wants Every Farmer to Know’:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz5vktTyDgk
Tim Thompson, Farm Learning:
Since 1965, Peter Andrews has been championing an understanding of the Australian landscape that started out to be unique, but is being broadly accepted now as the way to go. I want to spend a little bit of time with Peter today, having a look at his latest project, getting some tips and some ideas about what to look for when you have a look at your landscape and attempt to manage it, and find out from Peter: What are the two or three key messages he wants everyone to know when they’re looking at the Australian landscape? Peter, how are you?
Peter:
Thank you, mate.
Thank you very much.
You too teach people that they have to manage water or be taught to and let the plants take over.
Tim:
So Pete, the trees and the landscape, even if they’re dead, tell us a real story about what’s been going on. I reckon there’s a story in this tree, mate. Tell us what it is.
Peter:
Absolutely. Just looking see this root here is current.
Tim:
Oh till it died, till it died…
Peter:
Yeah, this one was a another stage of development. This one was another stage of development… This one was another one that’s getting back to when it was nearly right… Well pretty much that was the original water level which would have been above here about there. I mean, the regional water level, these are original.
Tim:
So you reckon we’ve lost that much water out of the landscape? Not just erosion?
Peter:
Definitely.
Tim:
I mean, we’re standing in front of an eroded bank here, but if you go back through the soil, all of that water’s left the soil.
Peter:
It would be simple enough to say that if we replace the soil and the trees, we’d be able to replace 30 feet of water across the landmass. Well, you should have how much that would do to the ocean.
Tim:
We think of Australia as a dry continent, but you reckon that’s absolute baloney, don’t you?
Peter:
Definitely. It was the land that developed and maintained megafauna for millions of years. Millions of years before humans came along. Then when they came along, of course, it started to change. We humans make an impact no matter where we are, no matter who they are.
Tim:
Let’s go up a little bit higher in the landscape and have a chat about some of the things that you reckon we can do to easily and simply restore water to our soil.
So to get back to that fertility, Peter, after intervening to take it away, we’ve got to intervene to get the water back, don’t we? And you reckon there’s simple ways we can do that?
Peter:
Guaranteed. It’s very straightforward. The fact is that because the rivers have now incised quite deeply, I’ve been able to take water off. The plants used to block the creeks and the creeks would flood out. the rain flow would go through because the high point of the river was where the plants couldn’t grow. Either they drowned in the wet time, the old grasses, or they were too dry in the hot and dry times.
Tim:
So Peter, you with your very simple machinery are now acting as a plant in the landscape to bring the water back up where it needs to be and spread it out.
Peter:
That’s brilliantly said, and in fact is very true as well. So I don’t have to do more than say: If it was run by plants and the water was forced to the highest points all the time, because the plants would grow so dense in the hollows where the facility was that it couldn’t get through and the very confusing piece about that the depth of the plants meant that the water at that level created a back pressure or a wave.
Tim:
Yes.
Peter:
And that’s how it’s very complicated until you understand that it was this wave effect which you never see as the floods are happening and they come into these areas as the wave formed the water automatically backed up behind it.
Tim:
And you reckon plants were doing that in the environment all the time and hydrating our landscape?
Peter:
Yes, and that’s the most difficult thing that most… It took me a long time to really, I could see the patterns but I couldn’t understand how the hell they were working and so I thought, damn wave, I’ve never seen the wave but you see it the beach of course but then that’s the wind blowing it. Out here it’s the gravity moving it and the gravity then is affected as soon as the wave forms behind it, so it’s amazing.
Tim:
And there’s a rule of threes you’ve been talking about. Let’s go and have a look at one of your ponds and tell us about this Rule of Threes.
So Peter, this Rule of Threes comes from your looking at the Paroo system and other natural systems that occur in places like Willcannia. And you noticed that natural water flow systems come in threes? Tell me a little bit about that.
Peter:
Well, there’s a main single flow at the minute which is usually the highest and then there are secondary flows with the other side so it’s an amazing…
Tim:
So you’ve got a main flow and then when it reaches its highest point and flows over there’s usually two more.
Peter:
Yes.
Tim:
Right.
Peter:
But there’s a reed bed which divided the flow up. So it would only let a controlled amount of water through the main channel. That’s why they didn’t get damaged. Yes. And the main went off what we called a floodplain. See, there was no such thing as a floodplain in the dictionary until the last few years. There were either plains or floods. Australia, because everyone came here, they were floodplains. And that’s what they talked about.
Tim:
So you’re recreating a flood plain here before we get to the, what used to be a dam that’s now a pond. As water flows across your landscape, you’re catching it in three contours and you’re building up a flood plain that’s going to take all of the nutrients out of the water before it reaches the pond and hydrate your landscape.
Peter:
Absolutely, well, it does everything actually. This is artificially changing the melon holes and the crab holes to something that you can work agriculture in.
Tim:
Because we used to fill in melon holes and crab holes, didn’t we? Because they got in the way of machinery. Now we’ve suddenly realised that they’re really important. That’s essential, yeah.
Peter:
But I found that when I did this, because we had a lot of crab hole country, we called them crab holes in our territory, so when I had that country, I let this dry out after about 18 months, and the bottoms of them looked just like the crab holes used look of this country. So it’s actually reproducing naturally the way the artificial one worked naturally.
Tim:
And it’s working fast.
Peter:
Oh year!
Tim:
The attic we’re standing in used to be salt affected, didn’t it? What’s happened to the salt?
Peter:
It just goes a bit deeper down. You see, each time you put water in and the salt solution, it’s leaking from there because as we destroyed the plants, they were all 90 parts per million of salt. So the salt’s sitting in the soil and it’s an essential component. And in the rain events, there’s always at least 60 parts per million of salt. So there’s always this salt replacement material.
Tim:
Then what would happen?
Peter:
The plants would lift up what they needed, a balanced amount of minerals on the surface and the salts would stay underneath. Well once we upset the plants and that wasn’t happening then the salt just came out of the ground below every dam, everywhere we changed the water pattern inadvertently we generally caused the salt problem. So what I started to do which you saw at the dam over the creek, put little ponds in and that just pushes the salt down again and the plants keep it up and it all works.
Tim:
So a little bit of intervention, not a lot of intervention. It’s not dramatic intervention and it’s not expensive intervention.
Peter:
He thought I’d put in, what did you try to tell me? I’d put in over… They were… were reals. He said they reals. I said no, they’re contours. Just because they’re little it doesn’t matter any difference any more.
Tim:
I didn’t try and tell you anything.
So even small interventions can make massive impacts on the environment, bring our plants back.
Peter:
Don’t forget the plants ran it and that means they were only little fellas too but they start from a beginning and then they’ve got to build it all into the massive landscape it was when humans first came.
You know, Tim, you wouldn’t believe that this was all salt affected. I put a simple contour in, done nothing else except let the water trap there to put pressure on the water that was coming under from the storage. And you wouldn’t very often see grass growing like that under a gum tree, would you?
Tim:
So contours, Pete, are a perfect solution to salinity problems across the landscape and they’re also a solution for building fertility. They also work well with dams and ponds.
Peter:
They were the most common process in the landscape. If you walk down a road and it’s just rain, there’s a little row of mulch on the contour. And as it grows, it extends. It starts at that point and it goes to the limit of the whole landscape.
Tim:
And in a flat country, which Australia is, it becomes all the more important, doesn’t it?
Peter:
Absolutely, but it can even do it in reasonably steep country because of the way the grass is able to redirect the water and then it cuts the mulch rows what does it and the plants grow through the mulch row and then that catches soil and dirt and so you end up with these contours everywhere.
Tim:
Once again, easy interventions, easy solutions.
Peter:
And it’s pretty you manage plants. See, always say to you blokes, I’ve got to make, you don’t manage plants, it won’t work. Simply because they have to take over. You just start it off. Because we’ve wrecked the water in the landscape, now we have to put it back, and get the plants to take it over for it.
Tim:
And when we’re talking about managing plants, we’re not talking about managing them with a spray bottle, are we?
Peter:
Not at all. Every plant has a contribution to make just because at this stage we don’t know. I have never taken a plant out. I’ve dealt with health and sick animals and I had the station, this was the biggest part. We never had to worm, immunise or anything and the uncles would send up sheep that were dying and they’d recover. Then when I went to Gauley the wheels had come off, it cost me $40,000 a year just to keep a few animals alive, a fraction of them. So that started me as well saying we must do something about this.
Tim:
Pete, where do you see all of this going? How does this message grow? How do you start adopting change in people’s practice on a broad scale?
Peter:
You need an advisory service, like we’ve got with the motor industry or the financial industry or the medical industry. It’s too complex. But you know, in my lifetime, the motor industry has gone from an old T-model Ford, which was the first production line… this is a production line, to now the solar powered drive-itself. If you got in that and it didn’t work, you’d pick up the phone and someone would tell you what to do. This is a solar powered drive-itself landscape and we have to realise the same thing has to happen.
Tim:
So we need good advice…
Peter:
It’s got to be done by specialists. can’t have any financial issue. It’s got to be run on the rules that those others are run on. They’re people that are not supposed to have any connection to the information they’re dealing with. They’re supposed to deal with it on the level of honesty and process.
Tim:
So Peter, you’d love to see agronomists start to look at natural systems rather than just curing the bottle, you?
Peter:
Absolutely, well it’s not that they’ve got to recognise that it’s the only thing that works for nothing and sustainably forever. But it doesn’t mean that every piece of science we’ve established isn’t able to be used, provided it’s in the right context.
Tim:
This is the foundation for the rest.
Peter:
Absolutely, I mean, there is no question. I started, as we said, a long time ago, and like I used every chemical and I did all the advice I had and then I had animals and I never stopped injecting them and feeding them. I don’t have to do it today, I’ve got to patch up the back. They’re the best structured animals that I’ve ever had.
And of course when I travelled through Europe they said the whalers were the toughest and soundest horses and they’d only been in the country for 50 years or more so they couldn’t have changed genetically, it was just the environment that did it.
Tim:
Pete, let’s keep trying to change the environment mate. It’s been an absolute pleasure to spend time with you. Thank you for having us to your property and I hope that people are inspired.
If you want to find out more, I have done some how-to videos with Peter’s son Stuart on how to build contours in the landscape.
But Peter, I think with simple rules and simple management, and a little bit of observation, this is something that everyone can do, isn’t it?
Peter:
Yeah, well, I mean, when I had it first examined, seven scientists were sent up, and then the old bloke that sent them up, Robert Summervale, said, ‘You know, the world in the next 40 to 50 years is predicted to spend $360 trillion dollars trying to solve what this old landscape solved.’
And instead of that making it easy, all the greedies came out of the woodwork, thinking that I must have been some dumb farmer that just fell on his head too often and that the property must have had it all. It had it, it did have, but it had to be rebuilt and in the rebuilding of that I learnt the beginnings of this. But I had to come here to the most degraded area that I could find and watch it rebuild, while I was playing with it.
Tim:
It’s been a long journey Pete, and it’s been a hard journey at times, hasn’t it?
Peter:
Very, very tough. If I could find my very worst enemy, I’d give him this damn job and I’d squared up with him.
. . .
Jingle (instrumental)
. . .
Johan Rockström, Swedish climate scientist: (at 45:03)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6VCTfzl1DU
These massive floods, it’s a new hydrological situation on planet Earth. And of course, we do understand the physics behind this, because we know that for every one degree Celsius of warming, we add a 7 per cent moisture holding capacity in the atmosphere. So we know that when we increase the temperature on Earth, we also power up the biological cycle. So we get more fresh water, we get more evaporation, we get more moisture, we get more clouds, we get more precipitation, but we don’t know where it hits. We should not, we are not surprised. It’s just that still the aggregation of this is causing large than expected implications so far. Where this will take us is very difficult to say.
Chris Stokes in PBS NewsHour on 7 July 2025:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7sKHQ0eSuE
The ice sheets, the polar ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica, they’re losing almost 400 billion tons of ice per year. And this is a trend that started in the kind of early 1990s. And it’s something that we’re really worried about because some of the changes we’re seeing now in terms of the mass of ice being lost is really quite dramatic. At the moment, the global average sea level all around the world is rising at about four and a half millimetres per year. So if you take that four and a half millimetres per year that we’re currently experiencing at the moment and you just carry on at that same rate of acceleration, before the end of this century, we’ll hit that kind of, you know, one centimetre per year.
So that means, you know, our young children who will be living into their 80s and 90s will be living with sea level rising at a centimeter per year. And that means that their children will then have to cope with one meter of sea level rise over 100 years. So this is really quite alarming.
As I say, the changes that we’re seeing and measuring at the moment are perhaps what we’re seeing is the worst case scenario playing out before our eyes. Just as an example, there are 230 million people who live within one meter of sea level. And there’s about a billion people live within 10 metres of sea level. And so for those people, you know, think of a lot of our largest coastal cities, London, New York, Singapore as well, Bangladesh, whole countries who have their land territory within just a few metres of sea level. Well, this represents an existential threat. You know, this threatens the existence of entire countries. We’re talking about widespread displacement of millions and millions of people at that level.
I think we have to just faithfully report what the observations are showing us, what the science shows. You know, people can debate whether to carry on burning fossil fuels. The ice doesn’t care, right? The ice will just melt as it gets warmer. But part of the message here is that every fraction of a degree really matters. So if we end up at 1.6°C or 1.7°C degrees of warming, that will be far better than if we end up at two or three degrees.
Part of the message here is like: If countries want to continue burning fossil fuels, and let me be clear, I don’t think they should. But if they do, they need to start preparing to invest trillions of dollars in coastal defenses, because this problem will not go away. Decisions taken in the next few years and decades by world leaders at the climate conferences will actually have impacts for several generations. And some of those impacts will be irreversible as well. We won’t be able to turn back on them.
Sir David King, chair and founder of Climate Crisis Advisory Group, former UK Chief Scientist, speaking at the London Climate Action Week 2025 Broadcast on 25 June 2025:
https://www.youtube.com/live/dvcMznlT3BE
The risk analyst people, published a paper towards the end of last year. In their estimate, loss and damage will amount to 15 per cent of global GDP by 2050. We’re looking at damage occurring at an enormous scale. Looking at the country of Vietnam, we’re now estimating because of the rate of loss of ice from Greenland, 30 million tons an hour is the last 10-year average – sea levels rising, the country of Vietnam is going to be under seawater two or three months a year, 85 per cent of the landmass of Vietnam. That’s the third biggest rice producer in the world. We’re looking at potential global collapse.
. . .
Mik: (at 49:18)
That’s all we were able to compile into one Sustainable Hour for you. And I would like to just remind you that there’s something interesting going on in the Geelong / Surf Coast community at the moment where Geelong Sustainability together with a group called the Resilience Canopy are organising a special training… a practitioner training program. So if you are a passionate community member or a volunteer or a local leader and you are interested in building skills to support our community resilience, you can find out more about this program. You can go to Geelong Sustainability’s homepage or you can simply go to climatsafety.info and find this week’s podcast, and we’ll put all the details there with link to how you can sign up. There are some online information sessions where you can learn about it and the real program kicks off in October.
I think this is something very much in alignment with everything that we talk about in The Sustainable Hour – about coming together as a community and finding that resilience and getting that connectedness with one another, so that we ready, so that we prepared for whatever is coming, whether it’s economy, whether it’s the climate, or something else.
Colin:
Mmmm… What did you really take from today’s program?
Mik:
It’s a strange world we live in, isn’t it? There’s so many lies flying around. There’s so much confusion. And it’s really difficult, sometimes, to cut through.
Colin:
Yeah. What I took from it is hard facts that China’s emissions have plateaued and are now in decline. And they’re practically exporting that around the world to the trading partners, and their trading partners are just about everywhere, barring America. And they’re likely to help countries reduce their emissions and hit their COP targets. That quite astonished me. That’s all except America, of course, America is going in the opposite direction under Trump.
But the fact that China is now leading the charge, if you like, by creating all of the EVs that we’re driving, because thanks to Elon Musk, we’re no longer buying the Tesla cars, we’re buying the Chinese cheaper versions, and rolling out and selling PV panels to the world so they’re closing down their coal. It’s not through their politicians making decisions, it’s just coming the cheaper options coming from China.
Mik:
And you know who else is really excited about this? – I think we can say… ABC’s Mr. Economy, Alan Kohler, made a special report on exactly what you’re talking about. And I think we can just sneak it in… Let’s hear what Alan Kohler had to say on the ABC last week:
Alan Kohler, ABC News on 13 July 2024: (at 52:25)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOEFacrAG2w
In his address to the nation on Independence Day, the President of the United States, Donald Trump, said something quite surprising: “I have never seen a wind farm in China.”
Au contraire, Mr President. Here’s a map of China’s wind farms. In fact, China is installing both wind and solar energy at a cracking pace.
China is also electrifying its economy faster than Europe and America. Now the reason President Trump was disparaging windmills in his Independence Day address is that the one big beautiful bill he had just signed into law that day turns America away from renewable energy and back towards fossil fuels.
The bill eliminates all of Joe Biden’s tax credits for electric vehicles, solar panels and heat pumps and instead gives tax credits to coal and boosts oil and gas production on public lands. As New York Times columnist Tom Friedman observed last week, it will make China great again. China now totally dominates the global manufacture of renewable energy products, of solar, of batteries and wind.
And because of the gigantic scale, wind and solar have become by far the cheapest forms of energy. I had been getting pessimistic about America’s withdrawal from the Paris Agreement and from the global effort to control greenhouse gas emissions. I thought it meant that the 30-year project to prevent global warming would fail completely because other countries would follow the US. And whatever miseries the scientists were predicting for us from climate change would definitely happen. But now I’m not so sure. It could be China to the rescue, with America stuck in a dirty, expensive past.
Colin:
That’s taken straight from my Roundup.
Mik:
Alan Kohler from the ABC. Great report. In many ways this is the kind of news we need to hear, and great to see the ABC lifting that job now.
Tony:
It sure is, Mik. And yeah, he’s been speaking the truth for a long time and off maybe into the wilderness. I think it’s certainly… So we need to be active listeners to what he’s saying.
Mik: (at 54:42)
And speaking of ‘being’, we have come to part ‘Be’ in The Sustainable Hour. Tony, what are you going to ‘be’ today?
Tony:
Yeah, I think: Be that active listener.
Mik:
And Peter?
Peter:
Be true to opportunity and guarantee that the truth should prevail.
. . .
SONG
‘How Many More Must Die?’ – mp3
(Verse 1)
It was a summer day, the sky was clear
Laughter carried through the air
But the clouds rolled in, and the river swelled
And no one knew it was a farewell
I held her hand as the current raged
But the water tore the world away
Now I stand with her name in my chest
And the question burns with each breath
(Chorus)
How many more must die?
Before we open up our eyes
Before we hear our children cry
Before we stop living on a lie
How many more must die?
(Verse 2)
Every headline reads another name
Every storm feels just the same
Young hearts lost in the rising flood
Dreams washed away in the mud
You can taste the fear in the air tonight
You can see the wrong in what feels right
You scream the words, but no one replies
The silence echoes in the skies
(Chorus)
How many more must die?
Before we open up our eyes
Before we hear our children cry
Before we stop living on a lie
How many more must die?
(Chorus — repeat, bigger and layered)
How many more must die?
Before we open up our eyes
Before we hear the children cry
Before we stop living on a lie
How many more must die?
(Outro)
The rain returns, the rivers rise
I never got to say goodbye
Look in my eyes, don’t turn aside
How many more must die?
Statements, interview excerpts:
Chris Stokes, interviewed on PBS:
What we’re seeing is the worst case scenario playing out before our eyes.
ABC News reader:
More than 20 young girls are missing from a summer camp and at least 24 people have died. Local authorities have called the flooding an unprecedented disaster, which came with almost no warning.
Johan Rockström, climate scientiest, in Climate Extremes documentary (at 55:05):
These massive floods, it’s a new hydrological situation on planet Earth.
AI narrator:
“You can feel in the water that something is wrong with the world. How many more children must die before we do something?”
ABC News reader
Fires are also raging in Turkey and Spain and Germany. As Europe continues to battle through this early summer heat wave that we’re seeing here, temperatures have soared into the 40 degrees.
Sir David King, former UK Chief Scientist:
We’re looking at potential global collapse.
Kitty van der Heijden, deputy executive director of Unicef:
The urgency of what we’re facing right now cannot be overstated. We are seeing the implications in flooding, in droughts, in the marine ecosystem. Wherever you look, every imaginable system is reaching a tipping point.
(This song was inspired by 18-year-old Benjamin Van Bunderen Robberechts, who lost his friend Rosa in devastating floods in Belgium in 2021, and today haunted by the echoes of that disaster as floods in Texas claim dozens of lives, many of them children, recalling the “brown monster” that tore Rosa from his arms. Benjamin now campaigns for climate justice in her name.)
. . .
YellowDot Studios movie-trailer video: ‘Summer 2025’: (at 59:10)
You made your plans. You thought you were ready, but the heat is just getting started. From the twisted minds of big oil comes a nightmare so terrifying because it’s real. You can run, you can swim, but you can’t escape.
Coming June 20th to the Northern Hemisphere.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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