Podcast: Download (Duration: 54:05 — 49.7MB)
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Android | RSS | More
The Sustainable Hour no. 583 | Transcript | Podcast notes
On 25 March 2025, The Sustainable Hour moves from global energy trends to a deeply local story in New South Wales where forests, culture and climate collide, and where an unexpected ally enters the scene: Ben & Jerry’s.
Our guest in The Sustainable Hour on 25 March 2026 is Hilary McAllister who is one of US ice-cream company Ben & Jerry’s Australian campaign organisers.
. . .
A royal visit with real climate intent
The recent visit from Denmark’s King Frederik and Queen Mary was far from symbolic. It was a climate business mission, reports Mik Aidt. More than 50 Danish companies arrived in Australia with solutions – offshore wind, green fuels, electrification, sustainable construction. Eight agreements were signed in a single day in Melbourne, including a standout 30-year partnership between European Energy and Traditional Owners in Yorta Yorta country for a major solar project. While Australia continues to debate whether the green transition should happen, Denmark is already building its economy around it.
EVs rising, contradictions remain
Colin Mockett OAM reports a significant shift: electric vehicle sales in Australia have doubled compared to last year. Around one in five new car sales are now electric or hybrid. Transport emissions have begun to fall – only slightly, but notably, after decades of growth.
Yet the contradiction is stark. Australia remains heavily dependent on imported fossil fuels and continues to subsidise them at a rate of around $11 billion a year. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is accelerating – from Norway’s near-total EV adoption to China’s dominance in global EV sales.
The Pilliga – a forest under pressure
At the heart of the episode is the Pilliga Forest in New South Wales – a vast, ancient landscape of deep ecological and cultural significance. Hilary McAllister explains the threat: a proposed 850 coal seam gas wells across the forest, with roads, pipelines and toxic waste ponds carving up what was once an intact ecosystem.
The Pilliga sits above the Great Artesian Basin – one of the most important underground water systems in the world. Despite overwhelming local opposition – around 90 per cent of submissions – the project has received approvals and continues to advance.
Sports activism – the run for country
Out of this tension has emerged something unexpected: the Pilliga Ultra. An ultramarathon and trail event that invites people to experience the forest – and understand what is at stake. Participants run, hike, camp and connect. They meet locals, hear from Gomeroi custodians, and witness the impacts of gas extraction first-hand. It’s activism through experience, turning curiosity into commitment.
The campaign to protect the Pilliga has brought together a diverse coalition: Farmers, First Nations custodians, environmental groups, union movements, ultra-runners and community activists. This diversity is its strength – showing that this is not a fringe issue, but a broad-based concern about land, water, culture and climate.
Enter Ben & Jerry’s. Not just an ice cream brand, but a company built on activism. In Australia, its focus is climate justice and First Nations recognition.
Hilary is based in Gadigal, Sydney, and she is the activism manager at Ben & Jerry’s Australia. As activism manager, Hilary leads the strategic development and execution of climate justice campaigns, supporting grassroots campaigners across the country.
Through Hilary’s role, the company is backing the campaign by funding and promoting the documentary film Run for Country – helping bring the story to wider audiences and encouraging people to take action.
It’s a reminder that businesses can choose to stand for something – and amplify the voices that need to be heard.
A dedicated environmentalist, Hilary is also the CEO and co-founder of For Wild Places, a not-for-profit dedicated to protecting wild places under threat. Hilary’s path to activism has been anything but ordinary, and she is eager to share and grow her understanding to foster lasting, planet-saving change.
The political and legal battleground
The fight is far from over. Key decisions remain around a proposed pipeline that would connect the gas fields to export infrastructure. At the same time, the Gomeroi people are engaged in a legal battle to defend their right to protect country. A recent High Court development means climate impacts must now be considered in these decisions – a potentially significant shift.
Three deeper questions
Why invest in new fossil fuel infrastructure that may not even be operational until 2030?
Why double down on gas when renewable alternatives are already cheaper and available?
And why are community voices so often overruled when the stakes are this high?
Links
For those interested in following up on Hilary’s work, try these links:
• Website: hilarymcallister.com
• Instagram: @hilarymcallister_
• For Wild Places: www.forwildplaces.com
• Ben & Jerry’s: www.benandjerry.com.au/values/issues-we-care-about
New song
The episode closes with a new original track, ‘Sweet Rebellion’. Blending imagery of red earth, ancient forests and unlikely activism, the song captures the spirit of the campaign – where runners, farmers, elders and even ice cream makers find common ground.
– Inspired by our interview with Hilary McAllister in The Sustainable Hour no. 583
“Be like Ben and Jerry” becomes both a lyric and a message – take a stand, stay curious, and don’t underestimate the power of unexpected alliances.
→ More songs from The Sustainable Hour
Be curious
Hilary’s final message is simple and powerful: Be curious. Go beyond the headlines. Visit the places. Listen to the people. Ask questions. Because curiosity is often where change begins.
“Most interestingly, the project is one of the most highly contested coal seam gas projects in New South Wales. And when the initial planning permit was released quite a few years ago, 90 per cent of locals said that they didn’t want this project to go ahead. So it’s got broad condemnation from the locals. And yeah, they’re just devastated to see this forest, which is so special to them and most importantly to the Gomeroi people being carved up for a very expensive fossil fuel that is continuing to warm our atmosphere and cause the, well, the man-made disasters that this area has experienced from drought to flood. ”
~ Hilary McAllister, founder of For Wild Places, and Ben & Jerry’s activism manager in Australia
→ Subscribe to The Sustainable Hour podcast via Apple Podcasts or Spotify
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
We at The Sustainable Hour would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we are broadcasting, the Wadawurrung People. We pay our respects to their elders – past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all First Nations people.
The traditional custodians lived in harmony with the land for millennia, nurturing it and thriving in often harsh conditions. Their connection to the land was deeply spiritual and sustainable. This land was invaded and stolen from them. It was never ceded. Today, it is increasingly clear that if we are to survive the climate emergency we face, we must learn from their land management practices and cultural wisdom.
True climate justice cannot be achieved until Australia’s First Nations people receive the justice they deserve. When we speak about the future, we must include respect for those yet to be born, the generations to come. As the old saying reminds us: “We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.” It is deeply unfair that decisions to ignore the climate emergency are being made by those who won’t live to face the worst impacts, leaving future generations to bear the burden of their inaction.
“The Indigenous worldview has been marginalised for generations because it was seen as antiquated and unscientific and its ethics of respect for Mother Earth were in conflict with the industrial worldview. But now, in this time of climate change and massive loss of biodiversity, we understand that the Indigenous worldview is neither unscientific nor antiquated, but is, in fact, a source of wisdom that we urgently need.”
~ Robin Wall Kimmerer, weallcanada.org
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TRANSCRIPT
of The Sustainable Hour no. 583
Antonió Guterres, UN Chief: (00:00)
Cooperation over chaos. We are all in this together.
Jingle: (00:15)
The Sustainable Hour. For a green, clean, sustainable Geelong: The Sustainable Hour.
Tony Gleeson: (00:25)
Welcome to The Sustainable Hour. We’d like to acknowledge that we’re broadcasting from the land of the Wadawurrrung people. We pay tribute to their elders – past, present, and those that earned that great honour in the future. We’re on stolen land, land that was never ceded, always was, and always will be First Nations land. If we are to survive the climate crisis that we’re facing, we are going to have to find ways of living the values that our First Nations people lived for millennia before their land was stolen. Their focus was on nurturing both their land and their communities, and they were custodians rather than owners of things, and that’s what we need to do.
Mik Aidt: (01:22)
The Danish King Frederik and Queen Mary have been here on a short visit. Not just the usual royal visits like with photo opportunities and dinners and speeches and so on. This was a business mission and I would even say more specifically a climate business mission, because they did not come alone. They brought with them representatives from more than 50 Danish companies. Companies that specialise in offshore wind turbines, in green fuels, sustainable construction, in electrification and so on. In other words, companies that have already figured out how to make money by helping solve the climate and energy crisis that we are now in.
Eight business agreements were signed in one day in Melbourne and I think the standout big deal was when the Danish company European Energy signed a 30-year framework agreement with traditional owners for a solar project in Northern Victoria, in Yorta Yorta country, where that’s just the first of several renewable energy projects that are planned under that partnership.
In other words, while Australia here is still arguing back and forth, politicians and media and so on, whether or not The Green Transition should even be happening, Denmark is quietly moving on to the next question, which is: ‘How do we build our economy around this?’ And Denmark is busy signing that economy into existence.
For me personally, it’s been a bit funny that I’m actually in Denmark at the moment while the Danish king and queen are roaming around in Australia. And from this end, in Denmark, the Danes had an election, a parliamentary election, yesterday. And an interesting one, I thought in many ways, with the main topics of this Danish election being pesticides, the discussion for and against a total ban on pesticides in Denmark to protect clean drinking water and in general a lot of talk about pigs. The election was even named ‘The Pig Election’.
But we’ll have to come back to that another time because we have another plan for The Sustainable Hour today. We’ll be talking about things happening in the Pilliga and quite surprisingly something that has to do with Ben & Jerry’s ice cream.
But before that, let’s hear what’s been happening around the world, and for that we have as usual as always Colin Mockett OAM. So what do you have for us today, Colin?
Colin Mockett’s Global Outlook: (04:15)
Well, I haven’t gone very far on this week’s global scene, because it begins with an announcement that almost twice as many EVs were sold in Australia in February as at the same time last year. We’ve doubled the sale of EVs and this is before, this is February, this is before the Trump war. And that which has jacked up the price of petrol and made the switch much more suitable. So you can expect to go up even further than that.
Around one in five new car sales in Australia were EVs up until February. 12 per cent of sales were fully electric vehicles and 7 per cent were plug-in hybrids. As a result, climate pollution from Australia’s transport section reduced last year for the first time outside of COVID shutdowns. Emissions weren’t down by very much, just 0.4 per cent.
But given that transport emissions have been growing faster than any other sector for the past 20 years, even that small decrease was significant. But to put things into perspective, we are well behind the rest of the world in this regard. Because according to the global energy body, Embers, their latest figures showed 25 per cent of new car sales around the world last year were electric.
We’re happy because we’ve got 12… – 12 point bit – just under 13 percent – in Australia. In comparison, Norway had 97 percent of new registrations as EVs last year and scores of other countries, not just Scandinavians and European ones but even emerging nations such as Nepal, Vietnam, Thailand, are all of them way ahead of Australia. In the world’s biggest and fastest growing car market, China, more than half of car sales last year were EVs. That’s because China accounted for almost two thirds of new electric cars that were sold globally. For our part, we’ve had three decades of misinformation and bad federal government decisions.
And we’re now really left vulnerable to the disruptions in supply of petrol and diesel that still powers 98 per cent of Australians’ vehicles. As the CSIRO reported this week, we import more than 50 billion litres of refined petroleum products annually, 60 per cent of which is diesel. Currently Australia uses more energy from diesel than from electricity.
The report said that Australia’s domestic production of liquid fuels is only enough to meet one fifth of its demand. And it warned that the real crisis has not materialised yet. At the moment, fossil fuel supplies are still coming into Australia uninterrupted by the war in the Middle East. And in the event that things really go bad, Australia has enough emergency reserves to meet demand until at least May.
Now that’s according to our Energy and Climate Change Minister Chris Bowen. But it’s unlikely to last if shipping in the Strait of Hormuz stops for any length of time. And there’s not much that the Australian government could do about it. The most sensible thing for the government to do, and to do right now, will be to stop subsidising fossil fuels at its current rate. The way the scheme works is that our federal government levies excise on petrol and diesel at a rate of 52.6 cents a litre.
But then it gives much of this back again, currently at the rate of around $11 billion a year. That works out as $300,000 a minute, by the way. That’s how much we subsidise fossil fuels. As the Australian Institute detailed in a report in April 2024, while some parts of the agricultural sector are significant, they’re significant beneficiaries of the refunds, but the vast bulk of the benefit goes to the mining industry. In the case of the coal industry, it’s a subsidy to burn diesel in order to produce another fossil fuel, coal. Both, of course, add considerably to our greenhouse gas emissions.
In parliament last week, Minister Bowen acknowledged the need to produce alternatives to imported fuels and pointed to a $1.1 billion fund established last year by the government to produce alternative biofuels in Australia using feedstocks such as canola, sorghum, sugar and waste. But he also said that our policy in relation to the diesel fuel rebate has not changed. That answer though may not be as firm as it sounds because there’s plenty of pressure on the government to at least wind back the scheme.
Much of this pressure is coming from within Labor itself. Back in January, well before Trump started his war, the influential Labor environment action network (LEAN), kicked off a campaign to strip miners of fuel tax subsidies. Louise Crawford, who’s the group’s co-convenor, said the plan was to cap credits and redirect excess funds into decarbonisation projects. This is within the Labor Party, I should point out. And the ACTU, which is Labor’s biggest backers, is also advising a cap on the amount that miners can claim.
The inside word from government watches tips that the change may come in the May budget. But back to the Australian’s adoption of EVs, it has largely come despite a lack of government policies, just like our national take-up of rooftop solar. Unlike the solar uptake, it’s coming from cheaper Chinese imports.
Four years ago, there were only two EV models on the Australian market that cost less than $40,000. Now the cheapest are less than $25,000, thanks mostly to Chinese imports. And according to Amin Gaur, who’s head of legal policy at the Electric Vehicles Council, we’re now seeing battery electric options across all vehicle segments, small and medium, SUVs, hatchbacks.
This year we’re going to see a battery electric Hilux, he said. And Australia’s relatively high prices for petrol and diesel are another factor that encourages the uptake of electric vehicles, especially the big American utes and trucks. By comparison, the average price of petrol in Australia is around $2.30 a litre at the moment. In the US this week, it worked out to be around about $1.30, that’s Australian dollars, $1.30 a litre.
So you can see they can afford, they don’t care about how much they burn and we’re buying their vehicles, which is pretty stupid when you think about it. Unsurprisingly, EVs are not as popular in Trump’s land of cheap petrol. Only about 10 per cent of new car sales in America are electric, and that rate is unlikely to grow under his administration, which has effectively banned the import of cheaper Chinese cars.
Conversely, in Europe, petrol is even more expensive than in Australia, and EV sales are higher. The EV Council did some modelling last year that showed a saving of $3,000 a year by driving an electric car and charging it at home.
And if they were charging it on rooftop solar, they’d save even more, an average of $4,000 a year. And that was based on a petrol price of $1.80 a litre. Now for some mixed news from the world’s greenest sports team, just for Tony. Forest Green Rovers. The Rovers men’s team lost 2-0 to Southend at the weekend, while the women’s team won 6-2 against AEK Boko. But this win was tempered by the fact that the women’s star manager, a lady by the name of Hannah Dingley, had been poached by Manchester City to be their girls’ head of academy. Manchester City is owned by Sheikh Mansour of the United Arab Emirates. That’s their ruling family in the UAE.
He’s an oil billionaire and I’ll leave that one out there and say that that’s surely enough to end our roundup for the week.
. . .
Jingle: (13:55)
Listen to our Sustainable Hour – for the future.
Tony: (14:03)
Our guest for today is Hilary McAllister. Hilary is Ben & Jerry’s Activism Manager in Australia, and she also finds time to work in the organisation that she co-founded, entitled ‘For Wild Places’. So, Hilary, welcome to The Sustainable Hour. Thanks for coming on!
Hilary McAllister (14:31)
Thank you so much for having me, Tony and Mik and Colin. It’s fantastic to be here. I guess what I want to talk with you about today is a project that’s very close to my heart that combines the work that I’ve done at the ‘For Wild Places’, but then most recently also Ben & Jerry’s.
So that particular project is an ultramarathon and trail running event that ‘For Wild Places’ hosts up in the Pilliga Forest each year on Gomeroi [or Gamilaraay] Country and it’s basically an example of sports activism.
We host a very inclusive hiking and running event that people from all over Australia come to. And then while they’re there, they learn about the Pilliga Forest and learn more about Santos’ plan to put 850 coal seam gas wells through this ancient forest that sits above the Great Artesian Basin, which is the recharge zone for that such important underground network of water that feeds basically a third or a quarter of Australia and is the largest underground water system in the world. It’s an area of Australia that not many people have visited.
I’ve been lucky to head up there quite a few times now, but I think because of its remoteness and its apparent bushiness, it’s called the Pilliga Scrub, so therefore people might not consider it to be one of Australia’s great forests like they do with places like… For example, the Daintree Forest or Takayna down in Lutruwita, Tasmania.
But it is a forest of immense cultural significance to the Gomeroi people and also incredibly biodiverse when it comes to ecology.
But unfortunately, yeah, it hasn’t stopped this coal seam gas project from going ahead and getting state and federal approvals. And we’re really committed to supporting the existing campaign that exists there to help protect it.
And I guess one thing about this campaign that makes it so unique that I think might be of interest to your listeners is just the variety and diversity of different groups that are coming together to help protect this place. Because we are a non-for-profit focused on trail running and outdoors people.
But through this, we’ve been working with groups like Lock the Gate, and The Knitting Nannas, and the Gomeroi people in their fight to protect country. So it’s a bit of an unlikely coalition, but we feel that’s what makes the campaign all the more special and also all the more powerful.
It’s also backed in by the New South Wales union movement who have agreed to not be involved in any of the projects associated with mining and transporting the gas from the Pilliga to Newcastle.
So yeah, from farmers to unionists to nannas to ultra runners, it’s a campaign that has broad support. But unfortunately, yeah, the New South Wales government just continues to push on and try and get full approval and say these 850 coal seam gas wells to set the forest.
Mik: (17:32)
Maybe just to paint the picture of… what does it mean when you build 850 cold seam gas wells? What does that look like? And what’s the problem with it?
Hilary: (17:43)
Yeah, so the process of coal seam gas mining is very destructive because even though the gas wells are relatively small, there’s a lot of infrastructure that’s associated with these. So basically they carve up a forest that was once intact and dissects it with a lot of roads and, for example, ponds where they have to store toxic waste that they dredge up from deep below the coal seams.
And all of this is sitting within a very vast forest that has been relatively untouched. It was logged, you know, many decades ago, but more recently, some of it is state forest. There’s a national park there as well and private land. And they have put about 20 coal seam gas wells through this landscape already. And they’ve been operational for about 10 years and most of them are sitting dormant at the moment. But it means that when you go up there, it gives you a real chance to see what this project would look like at scale because some of it already exists.
But for example, the Pilliga Forest, takes you about an hour and a half to drive the length of it from Coonabarabran in the south to Narrabri in the north. And all of that time, you’re just passing through rugged sandstone country with a lot of eucalypts and box woodlands. But it is just a very seemingly homogenous forest, but that’s what makes it so unique just due to its vastness and therefore the vast array of flora and fauna that call it home.
But once you turn off the Newal highway, you head down a gravel road and before too long, you’ll start to see large areas that have been completely scraped back of vegetation and fenced off with, you know, six, eight foot high fences with security cameras. And within that is basically a lot of infrastructure that sits around the coal seam gas well. But then, like I said, they also have large ponds and holding areas for the toxic waste that sits within the seams that they need to pump out to get to the gas at the bottom of those holes, which are up to almost a kilometre long in some points.
It just… When you head out there and we do tours with local environmental groups who do a lot of citizen science in the area and they’ve discovered spills in which the containment areas created by Santos have overflowed and this toxic waste which includes an array of things that I can’t understand, but are terrible and not meant to be found in a natural environment and they also have an incredibly high salt content, but the areas which these spills affected have, they’ve tried to regenerate them multiple times over 10 years and they just won’t grow back because the ground is too damaged.
But yet they continue to get approvals to proceed with this project. And about three years ago, large fires went through this area. And when you have underground, highly pressurised gas pipelines and at the coal seam gas well, when they are active, they’re flaring, which means that there’s gas being let out into the atmosphere and it’s on fire. So it’s essentially a blowtorch. And these things are sitting in the middle of a forest 95,000 hectares forest. And it’s just basically a huge tinderbox waiting for something to go wrong.
So most interestingly in this area, the project is one of the most highly contested coal seam gas projects in New South Wales. And when the initial planning permit was released quite a few years ago, 90 per cent of locals said that they didn’t want this project to go ahead. So it’s got broad condemnation from the locals. And yeah, they’re just devastated to see this forest, which is so special to them and most importantly to the Gomeroi people being carved up for a very expensive fossil fuel that is continuing to warm our atmosphere and cause the, well, the man-made disasters that this area has experienced from drought to floods and fires.
Colin: (22:00)
Hey, Hillary, you started off by talking about an ultramarathon. Which came first, the protest or the ultramarathon? And are you using the sport as a sort of a lever to get your voice heard?
Hilary: (22:16.024)
Yeah, precisely. So this campaign has been going for quite some time. And I guess we’re just somewhat an evolution of it. So probably about 10 years ago, there was actually a camp in the forest where people were living as a blockade to try and stop this project. So it’s been like all campaigns, it goes through peaks and troughs of, you know, areas where we feel like we can make a real difference and then years where it just kind of sits dormant.
We learnt about this project when we were travelling through the area visiting the Warren Bungles, which is quite close to the Pilliga Forest. And we called into this beautiful property called Bacall La Farm or Pilliga Pottery, where Maria Rickert and her family have created this beautiful oasis of German style accommodation and food and an enormous pottery shed.
And while staying here and enjoying their fantastic hospitality, they told us about the Santos’ plan for the Narrabri Gas Project and that this forest that they call home is under threat. We had the opportunity to head out onto some of the bushwalking trails around the property when we were up there. It’s just the most magnificent country, like I said, very rugged sandstone with high escarpments, which with views that you can see as far as hundreds of kilometres north and south with nothing but trees stretching to the horizon, and amazing gullies that are very lush and lots of wildlife, lots of amus, kangaroos, heaps of birds. They’ve had swift parrots through there.
And that’s what we try to do with the event. We bring people in to experience this environment, but then we share with them the threat that it’s under. And then they feel enraged and they feel angry and frustrated that this has been allowed to happen. And then they join the campaign.
Like I said, an important part of it is to then amplify the voices of the locals who live and breathe this part of the world and this campaign, and to share with them ways that people who have travelled from the East Coast to run or hike at this event, ways for them to take action to support the work that they’re doing and to hopefully protect the Pilliga for good.
Colin: (24:37.102)
So how can we help? You want people to come up there and help protest? Do you want… I mean the more people you get up there, the more damage you’ll do to the environment surely.
Hilary: (24:51.182)
Well, that’s the amazing thing is that the Pilliga is relatively in terms of tourism, it’s people who are, you know, maybe heading around in their caravans and have a bit of time. They will spend some time in the forest and they’ll really enjoy it. But too often, if you’re heading up the Newell Highway, you’ll just head straight through not knowing that this beautiful forest is sitting either side of the highway. We really encourage people to go to the Pilliga, to stay at places like Pilliga Pottery.
A local group called the Northwest Protection Advocacy Group has created a self-drive map that can take you around some of the gas infrastructure so you can understand for yourself the impact that it’s having on the environment. I guess we’re just trying to show that the Pilliga Forest has value beyond natural resources. First of all, it’s got its incredible significance for the Gomeroi people and that’s something that you can’t put a price on. But secondly, how do we share and promote this forest as a place of natural significance that should be valued for what it is, but then also by association tourism, because these are rural areas that do struggle to, you know, find ways for people to stay there and have jobs.
So if people are coming out and experiencing the forest for themselves, well, then there’s the opportunity to spend some money and to help keep these communities afloat during those times and without having, for example, Santos is a major employer in town.
Tony: (26:24)
What’s Ben & Jerry’s involvement in it? A lot of people won’t know too much about them.
Hilary: (26:32.46)
Yeah, so like you were saying in the intro, Tony, I’m also the Activism Manager at Ben & Jerry’s and that’s a role that I’ve had for the past year. And I’ve been doing my work with For Wild Places since 2020 when we founded the organisation and we’ve had three Pilliga Ultra events since 2020, with the fourth happening this year in 2026.
And when I started at Ben & Jerry’s… So, Ben & Jerry’s is an ice cream company, but the roots of Ben & Jerry’s is in the US with the co-founders Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield, who were two self-confessed hippies who basically wanted to create a product so they could amplify the work that they wanted to do to create progressive social change. So they thought that by having a product, they could share their work and their advocacy more broadly than just as two individuals.
They undertook a $5 correspondence course to learn how to make ice cream and that was the beginning of this now major global company. So activism has always been core part of what Ben and Jerry’s brand is about and hence why they have an Activism Manager. So I’m one of six Activism Managers. We have them in our largest markets around the world, being the US, UK, Netherlands, Germany, France, and Australia.
And it’s our role to basically amplify campaigns that work towards our mission within that country. And our mission in Australia is to amplify the work of people looking to find climate justice within the Australian landscape and really push for First Nations recognition and understanding when it comes to fighting climate change in Australia.
So when I got the role at Ben & Jerry’s, I took this campaign to them and said, it’s something that I’ve been working on for years and I think that it’s a really important issue that more people deserve to know about. So when I suggested that Ben & Jerry support the creation of a documentary about this event, which is called ‘Run for Country’, it just seemed like a really clear alignment.
And at the moment we’re screening that documentary in a range of cinemas across New South Wales, and encouraging people to contact the New South Wales Premier, Chris Minns, who ultimately has the opportunity to veto this project.
Colin: (29:05)
Right, so ‘Run for Country’ is a documentary. It’s not a race of walking and it’s not an ultra marathon per se. It’s a documentary.
Hilary: (29:17)
No, so the documentary ‘Run for Country’ is about the event, the Pilliga Ultra. So at the event, it’s in September each year at Pilliga Pottery, and we have 10, 20 and 50 kilometre events. And over three days, people compete in one or multiple events.
10 per cent of event entries and 50 per cent of event profits go back to the community to support the campaign to protect the Pilliga. So last year at the event, we filmed the documentary and that’s the story that we’ve been telling in cinemas across New South Wales.
Colin: (29:52)
Is it available online for people who aren’t in New South Wales?
Hilary: (29:57)
Not at this stage, we are encouraging people to host a community screening. So we really want to share it with as many like-minded people as we can. And if you head to runforcountry.com.au, you’ll find all the details there to watch the trailer, learn more about the documentary and to offer to host a screening in your community. And it will be available online in the near future.
We just really want to bring as many people together as we can in cinemas or lounge rooms across the country to see this documentary and to spark conversations about not only this project, but so many of the gas projects which are either approved or pending approval across the country and just the incredible devastation that they will have on country, but then also our climate.
Tony: (30:47)
What stage are the other projects at? What are Santos trying to do there? They got half the drills that they planned, or…?
Hilary: (31:00)
So Santos are aiming to put in 850 coal seam gas wells and at the moment they’ve put in maybe about 20, but they were, I guess, somewhat exploratory and they haven’t put any new ones in for quite some time. So that’s a real, I guess, testament to the work that the community has been doing. But basically the final, there’s several pieces of the puzzle that we’re kind of pushing on to try and cancel this project because it has received state and federal approval.
But one of the key pieces of that puzzle is a pipeline called the Narrabri lateral pipeline that will connect the gas wells to the Hunter gas pipeline, which will then take that gas through to Newcastle. This pipeline doesn’t exist. It’s currently under review by the state government and the planning, New South Wales planning. And we’re kind of waiting for the next stage of that. It’s been open for public submissions but that’s one of the key areas in which there’s an opportunity. If the pipeline isn’t approved, well, then they’ve got no way to get the gas from the Pilliga to where it needs to go.
But another key area in which there’s opportunity is the fact that Gomeroi, who are the traditional custodians of the Pilliga, have come together as a nation and unanimously decided to not allow Santos consent to undertake this work on their land which is currently under claim for native title from Gomeroi people.
There’s a court case currently underway in the National Native Title Tribunal which is essentially Santos and the New South Wales government sitting across the table from Gomeroi trying to basically make their consent null and void so that way they can proceed with this project regardless. But Gomeroi have held really strong up against the constant opposition from Santos. And they’ve had a few wins.
They initially lost and appealed and then it went to the High Court. And the High Court agreed that because they’re considering this project to be in the public interest, because apparently Australia requires this gas or New South Wales needs this gas, to be in the public interest, it also needs to consider the climate impacts associated with the project.
It’s gone back to the Native Title Tribunal just two weeks ago, where they were basically rehearing the case on the grounds that, yeah, they need to consider the climate impacts of this project in order for it to go ahead. So there’s a lot of back and forth. And also Santos is under its own scrutiny. It was almost, you know, it was up for sale last year and that fell through.
But then, with Trump’s war that’s happening, obviously, diesel prices, petrol prices, and turn gas prices are increasing and therefore, you know, all of a sudden this gas that apparently is required is even more necessary. So the campaign outcomes fluctuate greatly from week to week, but yeah, we’re all just holding fast on the options that are available to us and trying to push back at any available opportunity to make this project, I guess, for common sense to prevail and people to realise that this project is unnecessary and extremely harmful and we should just, yeah, scrap it completely.
Colin: (34:27)
I’m assuming that the pipeline to Newcastle would mean that the gas would be exported, because that’s what happens with virtually all Australian gas.
Hilary: (34:39)
Yeah, and that’s, guess, the exception to this project, which is why it has got as far as it has. So when this project was announced by Scott Morrison as part of the gas-led recovery, he stated that 100 per cent of the gas would be used for domestic use. So that is one of the reasons why it’s been considered, because New South Wales claims to need this gas. There are contracts that exist with NG to use the gas, some of the gas for domestic use.
But then a lot of it will be used for industry as well to back up the snowy hydro, but then also add a smelter in New South Wales that requires large amounts of energy. But interestingly, work from Lock the Gate has shown that this gas is extremely expensive to extract and it is cheaper to extract gas out of Western Australia where there’s current gas projects already underway for Australia to export it to another country, and then for Australia to purchase that gas and import it in through the Port Kembla import terminal, that is cheaper than extracting the gas out of Narrabri gas project.
And the fear is that the Narrabri gas project is a somewhat Trojan horse for the whole of the Liverpool Plains because once the infrastructure exists within the pillager, it will be a lot easier for Santos and other fossil fuel companies to come in and to tap into the pipelines and all of the infrastructure that now exists and continue to basically extract out of the Liverpool Plains for years to come.
Colin: (36:17)
Do Santos, by chance, sponsor the ultra marathon?
Hilary: (36:24)
They most definitely do not! But they do love sponsoring sports events. On the same weekend that we held the Pilliga Ultra, they were hosting the Festival of Rugby in Narrabri. And judging by the amount of signage and branded utes that I saw driving around town, they have plenty of money to throw at sports sponsorships. That, and the Tour Down Under, I’m sure your listeners are familiar with.
But yeah, we’re a very… Collectively, we’re a very small, but hopefully thorny pain in Santos’ side. But in terms of the money that they will gain out of this project, we’re just kind of shouting into the breeze in terms of the opposition just because there’s so much going in their favour for them to approve this project. So yeah, it’s very frustrating, but we haven’t… I don’t think Santos are worried about us. I think they’ve got much bigger things to worry about for better or for worse.
Colin: (37:26)
Now what about Ben & Jerry’s and your protest movement? Do they sponsor the September races?
Hilary: (37:36)
Not the September race, but they did sponsor the creation of the documentary and now the series of film screenings that are happening in New South Wales. But the way that Ben & Jerry’s kind of supports activism is basically by backing in partners that are already doing the work that we believe in, like I said, focusing on climate justice.
So we support campaigns by other groups such as Surf Rider or 350.org to basically amplify the work that they’re already doing and share it with a much broader audience through our own different channels such as newsletters or mailing lists and social media, but then also supporting paid advertising to make sure that the message that they’re trying to get out there can be seen and heard by as many people as possible. The call to act, and making sure there’s a clear call to action.
For example, like I mentioned, for these film screenings where Ben & Jerry’s has created a letter writing tool that we’re asking people to engage with to send an email to the New South Wales Premier urging him to stop this project.
Colin: (38:52)
Well, there’s an awful lot to take in there, Hillary. From ice cream to Stratforce, which is a WA company, and as you say, it was up for sale last year. And we’re very much aware that the amount of gas that they’re selling every year is gopping, as Australians are moving away from gas. So how many fracking units did you say that they are working on throughout the project?
Hilary: (39:21)
Yeah, well, like I said, that’s their goal. They’ve maybe done about 20 or so to date. But that’s the thing – that the footprint that they want to create is just enormous because each of those wells might, it’s roughly the size of a hockey field, but each of those sites needs a road to it. And then it needs, like I said, the storage ponds and the water treatment facilities and all of this.
It really does dissect a forest and it also locks Gomeroi people out of their country because they put up, you know, locked gates and large fences and people can’t go back to their traditional lands to practice culture. And essentially it’s, yeah, it’s state land that’s being owned, you know, or run by Santos and no one else, whether you be a trail runner or a traditional custodian, you can’t access those lands.
Colin: (40:17)
Has Santos at any point said how much gas is there underneath the forest?
Hilary: (40:25)
Yes, they have. I actually have the numbers here…
Tony: (40:29)
With this, Hilary, they tend to overestimate by a large, to a large degree, the amount that’s there. And then once they start, we haven’t quite got that much here. So I don’t think there’ll be too much difference this time. Whatever the numbers.
Hilary: (40:48)
Exactly. And it’s going to take them a long time to build it. So it’s not due to come online until 2030. And that’s just already, you know, in terms of like the New South Wales net zero strategy, that’s, you know, we should be investing in renewables as we know and not continuing to double down on gas.
Tony: (41:09)
And you mentioned the Liverpool Plains. Well, that’s one of the major food bowls in the country.
Hilary: (41:15)
Exactly.
Colin: (41:16)
As a matter of interest, coming back to the September ultra marathon, how many people does that draw into the forest and how many competitors are there?
Hilary: (41:27)
Yeah, so we have about 200 people participating over the weekend. We do cap it to your point, Colin, so we can make sure we’re not having a negative impact on the environment. But, you know, that’s just participants. But then a lot of those people are coming with friends or family. We have a lot of locals who come just to spectate for the afternoon, because we also have live music and workshops and pottery classes and these sorts of things.
So we try to make it a really fun weekend that anyone can enjoy, whether you’re coming to participate or just to spectate and check it all out. So yeah, I think we probably have upwards of 300 people out at the pottery and it’s a beautiful part of the forest that doesn’t get any phone reception. So it just makes for a really nice wholesome weekend with lots of people camping, bringing their dogs and settling in, leaving the phones behind and just connecting with one another and connecting to this incredible landscape.
Tony: (42:26)
We’ve been talking to Hilary McAllister, who is the Ben & Jerry’s Activism Manager and co-founder of an organisation called For Wild Places. Our time is just about out, Hilary. Are there any last-minute messages for our listeners?
Hilary: (42:47)
Yeah, sure. If people would like to join us in the PilliGa, the event will be happening between 18th and the 20th September, 2026. You can stay up to date by heading to our website forwildplaces.com. And if you’d like to check out the trailer and read more about the documentary, you can go to runforcountry.com.au and you can also put your hand up to host a screening in your community there as well.
Tony: (43:13)
that wouldn’t be restricted to people in New South Wales.
Hilary: (43:17)
No, we’d love for anyone anywhere to get involved because unfortunately, you know, there’s bad gas projects happening all across the country and what happens in the Pilliga doesn’t just affect those communities, it affects us all. So the more people that get behind this campaign, the better.
Colin: (43:34)
If you wish to make a screening, they contact you or just go straight to the website?
Hilary: (43:41)
Head straight to the website and there’s links to a form there that you can fill out and then we’ll get in touch with everything that you need to make it happen.
Colin: (43:48)
Cool.
Tony: (43:48)
Yeah, there could very well be a screening in Geelong.
Hilary: (43:56)
A few people from down that way come up, so it’d be great to… – I’m sure that they’d love to get behind it as well.
Tony: (44:03)
Yeah, I’ve been up there and it just really bore home to me the First Nations connection with country. There was an elder who was in tears and he was just devastated because he was forbidden from going on his land. He couldn’t practice his culture. Yeah, just show how important that was to him and First Nations people generally, that access to the land.
Colin: (44:34)
If you get the best outcome that you possibly could, what would that be? Would that be Santos pulling out altogether and then making good all of the sites that they’ve already explored?
Hilary: (44:51)
What I’d love to see is I’d love to see some leadership from our government, whether it be state or federal in – not a lot, you know, saying we’ve, we’ve thought long and hard about this and we’ve, we’re going to go all in for renewables and we don’t need this gas.
But also we are, we have listened to the Gomeroi people and they continue to fight to protect culture and country and actually respect that as opposed to, you know, just ignoring it like they are at the moment. And then, say that this project is not going ahead because I feel like if Santos were to make the decision it would be a financial one and not one that is based in climate science or respect for our First Nations people. So it would be great.
I think it’s quite a long shot but for example Murray Watt or Chris Bowen or Premier Minns in New South Wales to pull their finger out and say no we don’t need this gas.
We have listened to the communities, we’ve listened to Gomeroi, we’re going to pull the pin and then, yeah, like you said, make sure that Santos do their due diligence and clean up after themselves because the track record, not only in the Pilliga, but as we know across projects all over Australia, that they just leave a mess in their wake and we just can’t have that.
Tony: (46:00)
That’s terrific.
Colin: (46:13)
I think things are changing so fast. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to find, I’m not really sure, when is the New South Wales state election coming?
Hilary: (46:27)
It’s next year, I think mid next year.
Colin: (46:30)
Yeah, things politically are changing so fast I wouldn’t be surprised to find independents or the Greens standing on that as one of their platforms.
Hilary: (46:43)
Yeah, I would like to see that and it will definitely be this fight’s been going on for decades and I can’t say it will be finished anytime soon. So that will be one of the, you know, we’ll continue to apply pressure in the hope that we can get a good outcome come the New South Wales election next year, because unfortunately, Premier Minns has shown his support for this project multiple times, including saying he would consider compulsory acquisition of farmland along the Narrabri lateral pipeline route through the Liverpool Plains, which as you can imagine, went down like a sack of potatoes with the farmers.
But yeah, I think we need more progressive, intelligent, climate minded people in parliament to actually give them the weight, the power that they need to stop this project.
Colin: (47:33)
I wonder how much Santos donates to the government of New South Wales currently.
Hilary: (47:40)
I’m not entirely sure, but I know it will have quite a few zeros there and at the same time be a very cheap investment for them when it comes to the amount of money that they will make out of this project in the long run.
Colin: (47:55)
Basically, when you come to look at it, you’re not going to sell much ice cream out of it. So it’s very commendable that you’re taking the stance that you and Ben & Jerry are behind you because they’re going to sell no ice cream. So it’s, you know, you can understand why scientists are doing it. And I’m delighted that you and an American ice cream company are opposing it.
Hilary: (48:21)
Yeah, no, it’s a really amazing way to talk to people, you know, from a brand like Ben & Jerry’s. And I think it’s important to add as well that we have 20 franchisees across Australia. So we might be an American owned company, but we do have deep roots here in Australia with those small businesses that exist all across the country. And it is an honour to work for a company that has been fighting the good fight since 1978 here in Australia with our focus on climate justice.
Unfortunately, there’s a lot of work to be done. So I feel like I would love to see more brands and companies, you know, get behind these campaigns because they really need all the help they can get in achieving, you know, the livable, healthy climate that we all need to survive.
Tony: (49:11)
Yeah.
Colin: (49:11)
We should have, yeah.
Jingle (49:13)
. . .
Colin: (49:17)
Tony was right: we’re coming towards the end now, Hilary. We tend to try and finish up with a ‘Be’, a ‘Be’ motto. We started off with ‘Be the difference’. In your particular case, have you got a ‘Be’-thing that you would like people to do?
Hilary: (49:34)
There’s quite a few things I would like people to be, but I guess one that comes to mind is to just Be curious! Whether it be about, you know, the people in your life or the people around you or the places that you love to explore, try and learn a little bit more about them. And that’s what we try to do in the Pilliga by bringing people there. We just spark their curiosity about this place that they’ve never visited. And once they get there, they’re hooked and that curiosity grows. And then it means that they might have the chance to talk to a Gomeroi elder and hear their perspective about what it’s like to be locked out of their country or to hear from a farmer whose land might be compulsory acquired.
These are just the opportunities that we often don’t get to have to speak to these people. And I think going out with an open mind and an open heart is really what we all need to do more of in this very difficult, uncertain political climate that we find ourselves in at the moment.
Tony: (50:37)
Yeah. Keep in touch with us and let us know of future progress.
Hilary: (50:44)
Will do.
Colin: (50:46)
Come back anytime – but only with good news!
Hilary: (50:50.887)
Here’s hoping.
Mik: (50:52)
Well, we don’t normally do advertisements here in The Sustainable Hour, but today I would say: Be like Ben & Jerry.
. . .
SONG (51:03)
‘Sweet Rebellion’ – mp3 audio
Intro:
Be like Ben & Jerry
Take your stand, be curious and open
Drive north past Narrabri town
Dust on the tyres, red earth on the ground
Verse 1:
Eucapepalys whisper for miles and miles
Old sandstone ridges and ancient wilds
Now beneath those stunning views
A company drills for fossil gas
Eight hundred wells this forest of life
Pumping toxic chemicals deep in the ground
Runners arrive with dust on their shoes
Farmers and nannas and union crews
Some come for the trail, some come for the views
All of them asking the same question why
Chorus:
Run for country
Have a scoop for justice
Run for trees
Have a scoop for the climate
Run for rivers
Got a scoop for the elders
Run for the Earth
Run for country
Run for the life
Run for country
[Hilary McAllister: “Going out with an open mind and open heart is really what we all need to do more of in this very difficult and uncertain climate.”]
Verse 2:
An ice cream scoop for us all
When the world’s on fire
and the truth feels small
You can still take a side after all
Pass the spoon around
Let solutions be found
Bridge:
From Gomeroy elders to city streets
From dusty trail runners to melting treats
The story’s spreading from village to town
[Hilary McAllister: “90 per cent of locals said that they didn’t want this project to go ahead.”]
Pre-chorus:
Be like Ben & Jerry
Speak as loud as you can
about those 800 wells in the Pilliga sand
Pipelines crossing through farmers’ land
The forest cries: “Come and run for me!”
Learn about what courage can be
Sometimes the bravest voice
can come from an ice cream stand
Chorus:
Run for country
Have a scoop for justice
Run for trees
Have a scoop for the climate
Run for rivers
Got a scoop for the elders
Run for the Earth
Run for country
Run for the life
Run for country
Outro:
The sweetest rebellion
started in an ice cream van
Be like Ben & Jerry
Take your stand
Be curious and open
And take a stand
[Hilary: “Just be curious.”]
Give the Piliga a hand
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
CALENDARS
Events we have talked about in The Sustainable Hour
Events in Victoria
The following is a collation of Victorian climate change events, activities, seminars, exhibitions, meetings and protests. Most are free, many ask for RSVP (which lets the organising group know how many to expect), some ask for donations to cover expenses, and a few require registration and fees. This calendar is provided as a free service by volunteers of the Victorian Climate Action Network. Information is as accurate as possible, but changes may occur.
PETITIONS AND OPEN LETTERS
you could add your name to
→ List of running petitions where we encourage you to add your name
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
THE SUSTAINABLE HOUR ON AIR
LIVE STREAMING
on Wednesdays
The Sustainable Hour is streamed live on the Internet and broadcasted on FM airwaves in the Geelong region every Wednesday from 11am to 12pm (Melbourne time): 94.7 FM.
→ To listen to the program on your computer or phone, go to www.947thepulse.com where you then click on ‘Listen’ on the top right of the page.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
ARCHIVE
Over 600 hours of sustainable podcast episodes
Listen to all of The Sustainable Hour radio shows as well as our special Regenerative Hours, Climate Revolution and Force of Life episodes in full length.
→ Archive on climatesafety.info – with additional links
→ Archive on podcasts.apple.com – phone friendly archive
NEWSLETTER
Receive our podcast newsletter in your mailbox
We send a newsletter out approximately four-six times a year. Email address and surname is mandatory – all other fields are optional. You can unsubscribe at any time.
FOLLOW, INTERACT AND SHARE
The Sustainable Hour in social media
• Facebook: www.facebook.com/TheSustainableHour → Front covers
• Instagram: www.instagram.com/TheSustainableHour
• Blue Sky: www.bsky.app/profile/thesustainablehour.bsky.social
• Twitter: www.twitter.com/SustainableHour
(NB: we stopped using X/Twitter after it was hijacked-acquired by climate deniers)
• YouTube: www.youtube.com/c/thesustainablehour
Great if you’ll share the news about this podcast episode on your social media platforms!
→ Podcasts and posts on this website about the climate emergency
Sharing solutions that make the climate safer and our cities more liveable